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Video Poker Lawsuit highlights risk of ‘auto-hold’ video poker

Discussion in 'Video Poker Forum' started by Sparky, Jan 27, 2015.

  1. Sparky

    Sparky Member Founding Member

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    By The Associated Press
    JAN. 8, 2015

    PORTLAND — A lawsuit claims the Oregon Lottery misleads video poker players to think they’ll do better if they let the machines play the cards.

    Plaintiff Justin Curzi told Oregon Public Broadcasting he noticed the issue when using the “auto-hold” feature. It chooses what cards to keep or discard in the game that mimics five-card draw poker.

    Curzi said the machines didn’t always make the smartest plays. For example, he said, the machine would hold cards most likely to give him a straight when other available cards would have given him a flush, a better hand with a higher payout.

    Lottery officials declined comment, which is common for state agencies facing litigation. The lottery’s website warns players they may not do as well relying on the machine: “Auto-hold strategies vary by game, based on the particular features of a game and do not necessarily result in theoretical payouts.”

    Curzi’s attorney, Jay Zollinger, says the notice is too obscure, and documents he obtained through a public records request show the lottery knows through research that players believe the machine will use the best strategy.

    The suit filed in Multnomah County claims lottery officials were warned more than five years ago that the auto-hold function produced worse odds but did nothing to change the games or warn players.

    “The lottery knows how the players perceive the auto-hold, and the lottery hasn’t done anything affirmative to address that perception,” he told The Oregonian newspaper.

    Using lottery documents, Zollinger said he calculated that the lower odds cost players $134 million in lower credits over the last five years.

    That doesn’t mean players lost that much extra money. The amount includes credits racked up but not necessarily paid out to players, who usually continue playing through a number of ups and downs.

    Source.
     
  2. David Chicotsky

    David Chicotsky New Member Founding Member

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    Interesting, thanks for the share. Who'd of thought - the machines wouldn't play optimally for the patron, ha.
     
  3. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I live in Oregon, and the VLT's are infamous. A documentary was made about them called 'Out of Luck' and how these machines have destroyed peoples lives.

    The Return rate on these machines is 89 - 91%. The rates are published on the State website though not in the machines menu.

    This video totally exposes how the State Gambling works, and the deception and lies.
    Last Week Tonight with John Oliver: The Lottery

    And...there is no safety in the Indian Casinos either. Only four states have a gambling commission and Oregon is not one of them. The Indian Casinos are self-regulated (a wet dream for a Las Vegas casino), and the game manufactures have admitted that the casinos are given the source code and API's as per State Law, and if there is no law, then the casinos can do anything they want with the code, including suppressing Royal Flushes or other high paying hands. The return rate on a seemingly 9/6 JOB is 99.5% but if you suppress high paying hands, well the return rate can be as in the low 80's.

    Slot machine manufactures say that they create many versions of the slot programs, and that the lowest is 75% return rate, others are programmed to match the state laws where the casinos are at. Guess what the return rate the Oregon Indian casinos pick? Yep, 75%.

    Video Poker in Washington State is class 2, meaning it is a slot machine and a server elsewhere is determine if you win or lose when you push draw. Video poker in many Indian casinos is class 2 as well. If the machine says "all hands based on a 52 deck of cards" you are playing class 3, otherwise if it says, "for entertainment purposes only" it is class 2. If you find a video poker machine and it is not IGT, BALLYS or Game King.... Don't play it.

    I advise to not play at all in Indian casinos. There is no advantage play to be found in them, and it is not sustainable for anyone to play there long. the low return rates and skimpy comps only eat up your bankroll.
     
  4. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    I have warned against playing in any unregulated venue since my first little booklet in 1992. My warnings include all foreign casinos, cruise ships and internet casinos. The last I know, Louisiana has regulations as good as Nevada, but it's unlikely you'll find any attractive video poker there. That's one reason we retired as snowbirds a few years ago, spending about 7 or 8 cooler months in Las Vegas and the summer months in higher elevation areas including the Four Corners area.
     
    Mark V likes this.
  5. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Player Education is the only way you can combat unfair casinos. Even if there is no state gambling oversight or laws that regulate casinos, the casino can still elect to offer fair and honest games.

    Sites like VPfree2, the pogg, American Casino guide and other blogs and sites provide a Consumer Protection and Education.

    We need to educate the gambling population about what a bad bet is and how to avoid making bad bets. Drying up the revenue of casinos that cheat is the only way to combat them.
     
  6. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    I've been saying for years that the only way to preserve good video poker games, and to encourage the casinos in regulated venues to install more of them, is to educate all players on how to read and evaluate the payoff tables. Mark V has extended this to all casinos in all venues. The problem is that very few players ever bother to read forums such as this. The other 99%+ are just gamblers who expect to lose but play anyway. So haow can they be educated?
     
  7. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    So how can they be educated?
    The issues I have with any Gamblers Addiction counseling is the denial that have that the victim (in this case the player who was foolish enough to play bad games) was setup to be fleeced, slaughter and out right robbed by the casino/State VLT's.

    Some people have no idea that the return rates are so bad at some of these casinos/State Lottery Terminals that:
    1. There is no chance of ever of breaking even or making a profit,
    2. Continual play will impoverish you, create relationship problems, may lead to substance abuse and suicide.

    Some people will get it and realize that their plan to 'get rich quick' from that Machine is a dead end plan and abandon it, others ... well they sort of either don't care (already on the path to suicide) or think that somehow they win big and recover all their losses (certifiably crazy).

    I think shaming the casino/State that offers such crooked games is needed. Do it as a PSA or part of a political campaign, get the law makers to realize that they are hurting people by allowing such casinos to exist and operate. Get politicians and candidates to make gambling reform a platform for their campaigns.

    Perhaps a youtube channel that shows the viewers how you are being cheated, exploited and played for the fool would wake up people. Anyone want to help me with this?

    Perhaps pass out cards to the LV visitors that invites them to read a blog or view a video that explains it to them would be the trick. Most people after all want to win, and most people I meet at the casinos really have no clue how setup they are to NOT win.

    Lastly, the idea of 'Gambling for entertainment' has to be challenged. If that mindset is in the person who is in the casino, then they play for the thrills of it and the casino will charge for that thrill. In a lot of ways, the money in the casino is really a pool of all the players money and your competing with all the other players, the casino only get a cut of the action for providing the amenities to gamble in. If players where to look at it like that, then the would be far more apt to take a closer look at the games they play and demand a better game.
     

  8. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I recommend a book entitled, "Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas by Natasha Dow Schüll". I'm about half way through it now, but it covers why things are the way they are...
     
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  9. ddarko

    ddarko Member Founding Member

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    Cruise ships & internet okay I get that, but ALL foreign casinos ???

    why oh why oh why ????
     
  10. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Dan was saying that cruise ships and the internet casinos are NOT OK. You seem to have misunderstood him.
     
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  11. ddarko

    ddarko Member Founding Member

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    No Frank, I got him, just didn't word it correctly.....

    DON'T play on cruise ships or the internet. So, why on earth add "ALL foreign casinos" to that list ?

    Crazy IMHO....
     
  12. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Check... And I'd like to add, "don't make bets with anyone named Vinnie"...
     
  13. ddarko

    ddarko Member Founding Member

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    Sorry Frank, I have no idea what that means ??
     
  14. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    It was not intended to be serious, unless of course you know a shady bookie named Vinnie...
     
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  15. ddarko

    ddarko Member Founding Member

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    Right, okay, & no I have no mafia ties.....
     

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