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Craps Bank Roll

Discussion in 'Craps Forum' started by Grafstein_disciple, Feb 13, 2015.

  1. Grafstein_disciple

    Grafstein_disciple Member Founding Member

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    First and foremost before "gambling" I think establishing a bank roll is important - understanding how much your can "gamble" with and then understanding how much you can bring to the tables from that original bank roll.

    Lots of different advice out there - want to throw this out there...two questions?

    1. How do you arrive at your Bank Roll (if you have one ...lol) is it a percentage of your income? Disposable income? Income from other sources? or just go with it?

    2. Once you establish your overall Bankroll - what percentage do you bring to the table.

    I was recently reading up on the "Method" and his suggestion was 20% Session Roll, where other life long gambler's would cringe at bringing more that 5%....and for frequent players 2%.

    Stanford Wong, Mad Professor, Grafstein and I'm sure others all have established "methods" for establishing bank roll - I have to dole out some advice to new players at the Craps Table - and wondering how I should structure this advice.

    Based on what I believe - 2 years salary - take 10% and that is the most I can gamble - say I make 50k - that is 10k bank roll ... and take 5% to the tables at any one time - or $500.00
     
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  2. Alan Shank

    Alan Shank Member Founding Member

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    Personally, I do not gamble that much any more. I never did play a whole lot, and I never even thought about how much of my salary would I devote to gambling. Nowadays, I'm retired, so I gamble even less. My only rule was only to buy in for an amount I was willing to lose and not feel awful about. Whatever my buyin was, that was my loss limit. I don't see any point in buying in for $500 and setting $250 as a loss limit; you are just playing with $250. Whom are you kidding?

    However, I just came into a small windfall, so I am thinking about going to Reno for two days, three nights perhaps. The person who gave me this money told me to spend it on something "frivolous". In a case like this, I will decide how much of this money I want to devote to playing craps, then divide it up into maybe six session bankrolls. Of course, I don't expect to lose it all, but if I did I would not be crushed. The last time my buddy and I went to Reno, we actually came out ahead enough to pay for the hotel; we were pretty lucky, of course. Not sure when this is gonna happen, as my buddy still works (bummer!), and I don't want to be there on a weekend. If/when we go, I'll report.

    BTW, I live in California, so we only have card craps here; it's better than nothing.
    Cheers,
    Alan Shank
     
  3. Grafstein_disciple

    Grafstein_disciple Member Founding Member

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    Thanks Alan,

    There is a saying - the Best Gambler is the one who doesn't Gamble. He is usually far ahead of us die hards. We'll never learn ... or is this what these sites end up teaching us.

    Good Luck in Reno!!
     
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  4. Alan Shank

    Alan Shank Member Founding Member

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    Thanks you, Graf! >:)
    BTW, many years ago on rec.gambling.craps, somebody sent me a copy of "The Dice Doctor", and I read it and reviewed it. Didn't agree will all of it, but some solid advice. I will try to dig that up and post it.
    Cheers,
    Alan Shank
     
  5. Spider

    Spider Active Member Founding Member

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    Hi Alan,
    I had never heard of Card Craps so I Googled it. How come you can play Craps with cards but not with dice in California?
     
  6. Grafstein_disciple

    Grafstein_disciple Member Founding Member

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    I would to see that review ...
     
  7. albalaha

    albalaha Active Member Founding Member

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    Bankroll is a strategic thing and depend upon the money you earn and savings. Of course, one should gamble with the spare money, if he has any. Someone who gambles with the money kept for anything necessary, is an addict and destined to repent later. It is much like how much you can afford to spend on other unproductive pastimes of yours like boozing.
     

  8. Alan Shank

    Alan Shank Member Founding Member

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    Because of a rather stupid law. Neither dice nor a roulette wheel may be used to determine the outcome of a game in California casinos. So they came up with several ways to use dice "pointing" to cards, or just cards, to create the same probability matrix that dice produce. At Cache Creek, near me, the ball lands in a black or red slot, and they turn over the card in the black or red rectangle on the table. The cards have pictures of numbers/colors or zero/double zero on them, and are shuffled constantly. I have never played the roulette game, but have played three different types of card craps. As I wrote, it's better than nothing.
    Cheers,
    Alan Shank
     
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  9. Alan Shank

    Alan Shank Member Founding Member

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    Occupation:
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    This is a post I did on the old Usenet group rec.gambling.craps, back in 2009, I believe.
    Begin

    A few weeks ago, a poster named Richard Hale was kind enough to send me a copy
    of Sam Grafstein's book, "The Dice Doctor," which I have read through and made a
    bunch of notes on. I will now try to put my thoughts together before sending the
    book back.

    In a nutshell, this book advises:
    Limit Your Losses - Never Limit Your Winnings
    Sensible Progressive Betting
    Don't "Take the Steam" (Don't Chase Losing Bets)
    Manage Your Money

    Regardless of the type(s) of bets discussed, there is one money-management
    scheme that is consistent throughout:

    total gambling bankroll
    session bankroll chosen at about 5% of total gambling bankroll
    initial bet level chosen on basis of session bankroll
    put session bankroll in front rail
    make bets from front rail and winnings
    place excess winnings in back rail
    increase winning bets approx. 50%
    after a loss, return to initial bet amount
    never bet out of back-rail chips except to complete last bet from front rail
    when front-rail chips are gone:
    count'em
    if large enough profit, go to next betting level
    else if small profit, continue at same betting level, same table
    else if loss, move to next table, starting at lowest betting level based o
    new total gambling bankroll

    The basic idea of progressive betting is to take full advantage of a string of
    wins. "YOU WILL GET THE MONEY," says Doctor Sam, meaning the progressive bettor
    will win "three, four, five or even ten times more than the *weaker* player will
    win on the SAME HAND with the SAME INITIAL BET." He also points out that you
    only need two wins in a row to show a profit for the shooter (in "right"
    betting). Of course, the advocate of 75%-progressive bettor could just as well
    point out that he/she would win a lot more than the "weaker" 50%-progressive
    bettor on the SAME HAND with the SAME INITIAL BET. The advocate of flat-amount
    betting could point out that just two wins in a row locks up an even larger
    profit for a shooter. It's all a tradeoff. If you just knew in advance what the
    next shooter was going to do, you could tailor your bets to take full advantage
    of a good shoot or limit your losses on a loser.

    Here is an excerpt from a post I made recently on this same point:

    One player will bet a constant $5, while the other will progress on
    any winning bet, 5 7 10 15 25 35 50 75..., returning to the base $5
    after a loss. Here's where each will be if the loss comes on a given
    step:
    Code:
        flat     progress
    1   -5       -5
    2    0       -2 (won 5, bet 7 and lost)
    3   +5       +2 (won 12, bet 10 and lost)
    4  +10       +7 (won $22, bet 15 and lost)
    5  +15      +12 (won $37, bet $25 and lost)
    6  +20      +27 (won $62, bet $35 and lost) (finally pulls ahead of
    "flat")
    7  +25      +47 (won $97, bet 50 and lost
    
    etc. etc.
    The progressive bettor has to win at least 5 in a row to come out
    ahead of the flat bettor. With a pass line bet, that's about a 33-1
    shot. Of course, after that the progressive bettor pulls away rapidly.
    It's true that progressive betting will take much better advantage of
    a long streak, the elusive "monster" roll, but most of the time you're
    dealing with much shorter streaks, where the flat bettor still has the
    advantage. Let's examine the cumulative probabilities:

    0 wins in a row .5070
    1 win in a row .2499 (.7569)
    2 wins in a row .1232 (.8801)
    3 wins in a row .0607 (.9408)
    4 wins in a row .0299 (.9707)
    5 wins in a row .0148 (.9855)
    6 wins in a row .0073 (.9928) (finally, progressive bettor ahead)
    When you get to 9 wins in a row, the cumulative probability is up to
    .999153.
    So, we expect that 97% of the play will favor the flat bettor over
    this progression system.

    On a series of WL sequences, the flat bettor is staying even, while
    the progressor is losing $2 each WL.

    The flat bettor will do better on more shooters than the progressive one,
    whereas the progressive one will win much more on a few shooters. Assuming they
    are making the same type of bet, the flat bettor has a better chance of having a
    winning session, while the winning sessions of the progressive bettor will be
    more profitable.

    I ran two SysSim sessions, both starting with $110 bankrolls (the recommended
    session bankroll for a $5 pass bettor), one using a flat $5 pass line bet, the
    other using a progression of 5-7-10-15-25-35-50-75-125-175-250-350, which was
    the limit SysSim could take. I tried to put $500, but there was no more room in
    the input field. I limited the sessions to 200 rolls, about two hours' play. The
    results:

    flat
    %winning sessions: 48.2
    HA 1.32%
    189 wipeouts 0.47%
    mean ending bankroll: $106
    SD: $ 39
    range $0 - $265
    mean Bet Handle: $300
    SD $ 34.50
    range $130 - $450
    profit if one SD better than mean expectation: $35

    progressive
    %winning sessions: 32.5
    HA 1.40%
    1829 wipeouts 4.6%
    mean ending bankroll: $102.70
    SD: $119
    range $0 - $4030
    mean Bet Handle: $522
    SD $217
    range $136 - $4978
    profit if one SD better than mean expectation: $112

    The session bankroll of $110 seems a little light to me for this betting level,
    as evidenced by the almost 1-in-20 wipeout rate. I ran it again with $200, which
    eliminated the wipeouts but still yielded the same percentage of winning
    sessions. Because the progressive bettor is risking more, the expected loss is
    somewhat higher, but it doesn't take much luck for the progressive bettor to
    come out ahead of the flat bettor. Note the difference in highest ending
    bankroll. If one is lucky enough to hit a big one like that $3920 profit in two
    hours, it will make up for about 35 wipeout sessions.

    It seems to me it's as good a way to play as any other, but, personally, I'd
    rather have more winning sessions. My preference is to raise the betting level
    more slowly, but that's just a personal preference, not a value judgement.

    Every craps book that I have read has been based on the author's perception of
    his own experience. I say "perception of experience" because people do not have
    perfect recall. People tend to remember the unusual preferentially to the
    common. You see this all the time with sports, too. Someone sees a couple of
    comethrough performances by a baseball player, for example, and he becomes a
    "clutch hitter" in their minds, never mind the fact that, if you actually look
    at the figures, he hasn't done any better in "clutch" situations than the rest
    of the time.

    His methods have worked for him. Well, presumably, John Patrick's methods have
    worked for John, and they are very different, Patrick's being more conservative.
    They both claim that you are better off using their methods.

    Other tidbits -------------
    He calls come bets "semi-bad" bets because when you
    have one or more come bets and the shooter makes his pass point, then the
    comeout seven loses all the come bets. He also says having your odds working on
    the comeout is a STUPID MOVE. However, he prefers them to place or buy bets,
    because, as he puts it, "the dice do ALL THE GUESSING for me." He also uses two
    comes bets in a method where triple odds are available. (This edition was
    published in 1986, when high-odds tables were not as common, or as high, as
    today.)

    He debunks the ideas of past performance ("less than useless at a crap table"),
    trends ("it is of no value at the CRAPS TABLE") and due bets ("mean absolutely
    nothing").

    He cautions against any "system" that increases bets after losses

    As far as precision shooting goes, he acknowledges the ability of some people to
    control the dice to a certain extent, he also thinks the normal casino
    precautions are sufficient to prevent this. "Just roll the dice 20 inches. Give
    me ONE BOUNCE, and I'll personally book your bets all day."

    He says it is "useless" to "handicap" a crap table. "Accept the FACT that it
    only takes ONE roll of the dice to turn a HOT table ito ICE and vice versa." He
    recommneds starting at table #1, assuming it allows the betting level you wish,
    letting the Dice Pit do the guessing for you.

    In Right betting, he recommends "qualifying" the shooter before betting. That
    is, the shooter must either roll a natural or make a point before we bet on
    him/her. So, we can't "handicap a table," but we must "handicap" a shooter. So
    what's the difference? Search me. This seems inconsistent to me. Obviously, if
    we wait for a shooter to win a hand, we have missed out on that win. OTOH, if
    don't bet on the shooter and he loses, we have "saved" a loss. It's the same old
    thing - the less you bet, the less you risk. Whether you do better by qualifying
    the shooter is just a matter of luck. The shooter has the same chance of losing
    the second hand as the first. So, why does he recommend this, when he debunks
    trends, past performance, due bets, etc.? I have no idea. Perhaps early in his
    craps-playing days he lost a lot of money on shooters who crapped out or sevened
    out without winning a hand. ???????????? Since you never bet on an unqualified
    shooter, you never roll the dice yourself!


    With Right betting, if a QUALIFIED SHOOTER throws a craps on the comeout roll,
    he recommends just making another same-size bet. No matter how many craps in a
    row, he just keeps making the same bet, never increasing it to "chase the
    losses." A craps also returns the bet to the starting point after a streak of
    wins.

    Also with Right betting, he recommends parlaying naturals once if you are
    betting pass plus single odds. For example:

    You have $100 earmarked to bet $50 pass and take $50 odds. The shooter rolls a
    seven. You leave the $50 bet and $50 winnings up and "lock up" the $50 you would
    have bet on the odds. If the shooter rolls another natural, you have the $200
    plus the $50 you didn't bet on the odds. If the shooter rolls a point, you don't
    take odds; then if he makes the points, same as above. If he loses, either on a
    craps or seven out, you at least have "saved" the $50 you were going to bet on
    the odds.

    If you are betting double or triple odds, he recommends parlaying twice.

    He recommends what he calls "Converted Come Bets." These work like this:
    bet pass line
    if a point is rolled take odds
    if another point is rolled, make a place bet on that point
    do this twice

    Well, it's just a delayed place bet. He doesn't specifically say so, but based
    on his example these bets "work" on the comeout, so they're still subject to
    getting wiped out on the comeout seven.

    For Wrong betting, he has a different idea of not "chasing losses." If a shooter
    wins, whether a natural or a point, you don't make any more bets on that
    shooter. Now, with Right betting, he continues to make minimum bets after craps
    is thrown, but here betting stops when a shooter wins a bet, period.

    For Wrong bettors, parlay the craps once in single odds, twice in double+ odds,
    not laying odds if a point is rolled on the second/third comeout, but rather
    "locking up" the odds portion.

    He advocates taking over a don't bet when an "IDIOT" calls "no action" if the
    point is 6 or 8. He calls it a "100% GUARANTEED WINNING BET," which of course it
    isn't, but it's a bet you should win more often than not, and YOU haven't had to
    survive the comeout to get there.

    His aversion to come bets doesn't apply to don't come bets

    Money Management
    ----------------
    Limiting Losses
    1. session bankroll about 1/20 of total gambling bankroll
    2. never increase a losing bet
    3. in Wrong betting, never bet on a shooter who has "beaten" you
    4. initial bet level is based on session bankroll, which should allow 10 bets

    Don't Limit Your Winnings 1. when front portion of chip rack is empty, if the
    rear ("lockup" portion has more money than your original stake, keep playing, at
    the same betting level or the next higher.

    I'm not sure how realistic his figures are. For example, a $5 Right bettor
    taking single odds should have a session bankroll of $110, which implies a total
    gambling bankroll of $2200! If you have a total gambling bankroll of $500, this
    yields a session bankroll of only $25, which would only be good at a table with
    quarter chips and sub-$1.00 minimum.

    Also, when you end a session behind, he just says re-adjust your session stake
    based on your new total gambling bankroll and go play at another table. That's
    not really a stop loss, to my mind. There's no "Cosmic Reset Button."

    The front-rack, rear-rack, "lockup" system is interesting and novel, but it
    seems to me that it doesn't prevent losing back most of your winning at a given
    session. For example, suppose you begin with $110 in the front rack. Early in
    the session, you win most of the bets, so you're putting money in the rear rack
    while the front rack is depleted very little. Let's say you have $80 in the back
    rack and still $90 in the front, so you're ahead $60, more than 50% of the
    initial bankroll. If you then start to lose, you can still lose the whole $90 in
    the front rack, leaving you with just the $80 you "locked up," which means you
    went from $60 ahead to $30 behind. Many money-management types would advocate
    "locking up" some portion of the $60 PLUS the initial stake and playing with
    what's left, until some other level is reached, etc.

    More about the "lockup" groove
    ------------------------------
    Example of the use of the two grooves in the chip rack:
    Put your table stake of $110 in the front groove and make initial $5 bet from it
    F $105 R $0 table $5
    If you win, you have $10. Bet $7 and put $3 in the rear groove.
    F $105 R $3 table $7
    If you win, you have $14. Bet $10 and put $4 in the rear groove.
    F $105 R $7 table $10
    If you lose, bet $5 from the front rack.
    F $100 R $7 table $5

    As long as you're winning, the front rack does not decrease at all, as you bet
    from your winnings - "reinvestment." Whenever you lose a bet, the next bet comes
    from the front rack, in the minimum amount. So, it should take about nine losses
    for the front rack to be depleted. If your stake is equal to 10 minimum bets,
    the initial bet plus nine more after losses would be it. If you're taking odds,
    then some of the time you would get a decision on the comeout and not bet the
    odds part, which would mean it would take more than 9 losses to deplete the
    front rack. I did a manual session in WinCraps using this method. I was betting
    $5 pass, single odds, increasing to $7 on a point win, parlaying a natural win
    and locking up the odds I didn't take. The bankroll was $110. After 12 losses
    the front rack was empty. I had $62 in the back rack, a $48 loss. It took 58
    rolls to get there, which represents about a half hour. Obviously, this was a
    bad session, as I lost almost $29 of the total bet amount of $168. In a more
    positive session, it would take longer to deplete the front groove. Except for a
    very good session, though, you would usually get to the point of taking
    "inventory" withing an hour or two, it seems. At that point, if you are behind
    you are supposed to stop, re-evaluate your total gambling bankroll, get a new
    table stake and a new table and start over. Alternately, you could go take a
    nap, have a meal, or whatever. If you're ahead, you are supposed to continue at
    that table, possibly using a higher table stake and starting bet amount. No
    matter how much you win, however, you are only supposed to advance one level.

    One small problem with this method is that the time for the front rack to
    deplete, when you take "inventory" is going to vary quite a lot. Also, in my
    WinCraps session I reached the "stop & go to another table" point after only 1/2
    hour, still having over half of my original stake. Doc Sam says to go to the
    next numbered table (let the Dice Pit do the guessing!), but if I am a low-limit
    bettor, it may not always be possible to find another table with the appropriate
    minimum that isn't full. He doesn't explain, I don't believe, why you're
    supposed to go to another table. I find this somewhat odd in view of the fact
    that he states very clearly elsewhere that "handicapping" a table is worthless.

    Here's an alternate suggested method: 1. put your table stake in the front rack
    2. if you lose, bet from the front rack again 3. if you win, put the winning bet
    and the winnings in the back groove and bet again from the front groove (in
    practice, this would mean taking the amount of the next bet from the front
    groove, putting it in the back groove or part in the back groove and part on the
    table, if the bet was an increased amount)

    This way, all bets come from the front rack, and the back rack represents all
    winning bets plus all winnings. When the front rack is depleted, you will have
    bet the amount of your bankroll. Since you are not re-investing any of your
    winnings or winning bets, this will happen sooner than with Dr. Dice's method.
    You will reach a point of re-evaluation sooner. At that point, if you are ahead
    you could put the amount of your original bankroll back in the front rack,
    leaving your winnings "locked up." As long as that remains the case, you are
    also keeping track of your total bet handle, as the stake amount times the
    number of times you have bet it. If you are behind after a depletion, then you
    would have to jot down the amount left and add it to previous bankroll amounts
    depleted. For example:

    $110 stake
    when depleted, $170 in back groove, you've bet $110 total, won $70
    put $110 in front, $60 remaining in back
    when depleted, $110 in back groove, you've bet $220 total, won $10
    put $110 in front, $10 remaining in back
    when depleted, $80 remaining in back, you've bet $330 total, lost $30
    put $80 in front, nothing in back
    when depleted, $110 in back, you've bet $410 total, net $0

    What this gives you is a quicker "turnaround" and at each "depletion point" you
    know how much you've bet and how much you've won or lost. That may or may not be
    useful information, but I, for one, would like to have it.

    Finally, for whatever they're worth, here are a couple of formulae I came up
    with for what's in the front and rear grooves:

    front = initial stake - bets + winning bets re-invested + winnings re-invested -
    odds locked up rear = winnings - re-vested + odds locked up
    So what? I don't
    know.

    Wrapup ------ There's a lot more in there. I have just discussed the general
    approach and some oddities (as I see them). He has examples of his recommended
    methods for lots of different bets, some of which he doesn't recommend, but, as
    he puts it, if you are going to be an IDIOT, at least be an INTELLIGENT IDIOT.
    So, he has methods for the one-roll bets, field bets, various combinations of
    place bets, and various methods for Wrong betting. He even has a play he calls
    the "Pensioner's Play for the Wrong Bettor," designed for a friend of his on a
    fixed income. It involves 25-cent chips and a table stake of $4.50! He is
    definitely one who recommends the low-vig bets, including taking multiple odds,
    especially on the don't. He calls the place bets on the 6 and 8 the LEAST WORST
    BET.

    Regardless of the type of bet, the basic rules are the same.

    Well, I hope this has been interesting and possibly informative. I certainly
    like this book much better than those of JP.

    Thanks again to Richard for sending me the book, and I will be sending it back
    on Monday.
    Cheers, Alan Shank

    END

    Back then, I was using a DOS program called SysSim to simulate stuff. It was a non-graphic program, i.e. it didn't animate the dice or anything, just spit out the numbers, but it was fairly powerful and fast, although nowhere near as flexible as WinCraps. This was six years ago, remember, and I didn't even re-read it carefully.
    Cheers,
    Alan Shank
     
    Fritz likes this.
  10. Spider

    Spider Active Member Founding Member

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    Thank you for a great,detailed reply :)
     
  11. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Occupation:
    Gambler, bikini contest judge, and lounge rat
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The methods published by "The Dice Doctor" aka Sam Grafstein is very powerful 'structured play' method. I mastered his play and found that my game vastly improved, as did my bankroll. The biggest reason of my improvement is this:

    1. Quitting the junk betting. All of the one roll bets chew up your bankroll very fast. Hardways is also a bad bet as well.
    2. Having a structure of play that is automatic and one that I don't really have to think about. The wisy-washy betting is gone.
    3. Strong bets! Weak bets on a good hand or monster hand is a nightmare. Sam methods teach you how to make respectable bets.
    4. Bankroll and money management. that alone has probably made me more money that anything else. Most players buy-in to small and play to large.

    one thing about Craps is that you never know when a good roll will happen. It is just you have to be there when it does happen with the right bets and method of play to make it pay. Just like in any other Casino game, you lose, lose and lose, then WIN that recovers all of your loses and build your bankroll more. The key is you just have to be there and ready to act on it.
     
  12. BigBen

    BigBen New Member Founding Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2015
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    Location:
    NY, The State Of Confusion!
    Like a lot of people say...

    DON'T go to a casino with $100 and expect to make $1000...
    Why not go to a casino with $1000 and expect to make $100!?!?
    A 10% financial gain is HUGE these days.

    PROPER Bankroll, Betting Skills, Money Management, Discipline, and a true understanding of the game you're playing...
    They're all just so crucial to one's success at the tables.
     
    Mark V likes this.
  13. BigBen

    BigBen New Member Founding Member

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    Oh, and IMHO, also staying away from the Prop-Bets, unless they're being used as a Hedge, is HUGE when it scomes to limiing Bankroll-Drawdown! ;)
     
  14. BigBen

    BigBen New Member Founding Member

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    Oops...

    ...LIMITING...
    Dang Edit timed out at 5 minutes!
     

  15. Fritz

    Fritz New Member Lineage to Founders

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    I hear you GD. To me "Bankroll Management" is the most important thing in any field of the gambling world. You need to have roll to keep building roll. No roll=no $.

    Roll=tools, carpenter:hammer, gambler:$

    I have a friend that kept 65K in his glove compartment of his car. He was a pro(retired now). He was arrested for something else & had the $ taken away. Dude had to goto court and explain BR. He got his $ back..
     
  16. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I have talked to the WSOP stars and they all say this:

    "Everyone plays poker the same. Those of us who get to the top do so because of money management."

    From what I can see, the lack of money management skill is the difference between a pro gambler and a gambler with a problem. Many books on gambling have various means to manage your money, and many 'gambling coaches' offer many suggestions, though it all comes to this:

    Play only games that give the house the least edge!

    Things like, "What should my bankroll be?" and "what play level should I play at?" ... is all very subjective and greatly varies from each individual, the games they play, and what 'edge' they have going for them.

    What I see is this:
    Gamblers who play games with a large house edge: bingo, keno, slots, big wheel, scratch tickets, lottery.
    Gamblers who are not skilled with the game: Video Poker, blackjack, craps
    Gamblers who take shots (large bets): baccarat, roulette
    Gamblers who are just not informed: tri-poker and other carnival card games.

    The most common is the "gambler who takes a shot" where they make a very large bet on the NEXT DECISION, be it the turn of the card or the roll of the dice. With Craps I commonly see someone dump a few hundred in the Field as a "taking a shot". Sometimes you see this in the High limits room with the 3-reel $10 slots too. Those shots can become very costly and if you lose enough to fast, your shots can 'take you out'.

    OK, Alcohol is an issue. Seems to me that the "getting buzzed" can lead to bad decisions while playing or "taking shots" with large bets that would not normally be made with not drinking. Just my observations.
     
  17. rongarm10

    rongarm10 Member Lineage to Founders

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    Hey Spider just wanted to chime in about your question as to why CA doesn't allow dice and regular roulette. One of the employees at the Indian Casino, told me that if it was allowed that CA wanted a 25% cut on the profits. Of course lawmakers haven't allowed it also. Although I have heard that every now and then some lawmaker tries to intro. a bill to allow regular playing of craps and roulette. Just sayin.
     
  18. Grafstein_disciple

    Grafstein_disciple Member Founding Member

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    Occupation:
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    Some good answers and appreciate the input.

    I feel that Sam Grafstein has a good system and strategy of what a proper roll should look like - and goes on to say that a pro craps player should take 2% to the tables - while all others should take 5% to the tables - or to simply "The Rule of 20" ... he feels with this in place you'll be able to overcome losing streaks and stay in action!

    First and most important is to decide what you can afford to gamble. Let's say take 10% of your take home pay ...that to me is a lot. Then decide what to take to the table. As an example - On a 10k bank roll, that's $500 betting stake per session, and for a Pro, that's $200.00.

    What I find to Big Ben's point - is too many people expect to make too much - on too small a bank roll. Craps is very much a game of bank roll management...more important that all the other parts of the game, understanding how to be "capitalized" at the table. This has been a hard lesson over my career - but one I take very seriously.

    Almost more so for me after WINNING then losing ... I don't chase my losses ... but sometimes when I win, I tend to leak funds...we've all done it - loosen right up and burn through winnings - chasing the Grail.

    Too much at the table - your asking for trouble, too little - then you can't over come variance. We all know Craps is about the "roll" - the one roll that makes the game what it is. In order to be there for the "roll" you need to have enough stake to overcome the dips and hurdles.

    Grafstein Bank Roll Strategy

    10% of your income = X = Gambling Bank Roll (is 10% fair? or as Mark V once pointed out - earn income elsewhere to build your X!!)
    20% of X = What you bring to the table ... per session...so Session Bank Roll
    Divide Session Bank Roll by 10 - according to Grafstein - what you bet on each shooter...

    Then after each session - you add your wins (or losses) to come up with a new TOTAL, and start the math all over.

    If you WIN at a session ... and win enough - you then start your betting at the next level (more on that later) ... if you lose you do the math and start with your new total.

    So in a sense your always gambling with 5% of what is in your Total Gambling Bank Roll === unless you go on a Heater - then you ride the wave so to speak.

    That's at least a "Bankroll Strategy" ... and one I adhere too (mostly lol) but without I'd be lost.
     
  19. zengrifter

    zengrifter Member Lineage to Founders

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    Wong's BR calculation advice is strictly limited to games like card-counting BJ where the player has a +EV, no?
     
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  20. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    If you don't have the edge, then it really does not matter what size bankroll you have. There is no edge to gain with the Grafstein methods, though the discipline and the methods in his book can bring your play to the smallest house edge possible.

    As for gaining the edge ...

    There are players who can do this, and it is not with trick shooting or Dice Influence. That is all I will say on this for now.
     
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