1. Welcome to the #1 Gambling Community with the best minds across the entire gambling spectrum. REGISTER NOW!
  2. Have a gambling question?

    Post it here and our gambling experts will answer it!
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Discussions in this section are assumed to be EV- as they are outside of the Advantage Play section. For EV+ discussions, please visit the Advantage Play section.
    Dismiss Notice

Misc Is there such a thing as a "professional" gambler? Are Advantage Players "professionals"?

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous Gambling Forum' started by MrV, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    1,830
    There was a news report on local nevada TV......one of the feel good stories at the end of the 28 minutes of murder and rape reporting.
    A young man with a mental disability, who is a greeter at walmart. I have seen him before. He is pleasant.
    Anyway he,is a greeter, and also brings carts back up front from the lot.
    The report said how it was a great deal for the young man and for walmart who gets part of the wages reimbursed from federal programs. He makes 23k a year(with overtime) and is 100 percent self sufficient. In that area of the country 23k along with renting a small room in town goes a long way.

    According to Mr V.....he is a guy, that any daughter might bring home to mom and dad and introduce as a "professional".

    He meets the criteria of self sufficiency. He spends 40 hours a week doing his job. He does his job well enough for the employer to continue to pay him.
     
  2. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Likes:
    652
    Occupation:
    attorney at law (retired)
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    No, he's not a professional, he's an employee of a corporation.

    A professional gambler has no corporate entity paying his wage: he makes it or breaks it solely on his own efforts.
     
  3. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Likes:
    1,072
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The definition of a "professional AP". I don't know the answer and I have spent way too much time on discussions of the topic. Larry and Blackhole (and others) are surely correct in that there are many more claiming to be than actually are. I have seen the number 200 thrown around in regards to blackjack card counter type Professional players worldwide, and that would include various teams, but I have no idea. When you include machine type players, that I have little knowledge of and am just beginning to understand from reading the likes of Mickey and Axel, I would guess far more. But again, it will come down to how you define professional. Is someone showing profits of 10-12 K a year, bouncing around between comped rooms, friends sofa's ect.....a professional? Or is there a higher monetary threshold like 30-40k that allows you to have a permanent residence and maybe things like health care that are rarely included in the lower description.

    Case #1: As some may know, I have a roommate (and now friend), that I met 7 years ago, just after I moved to Vegas who calls himself a "professional poker player". When I met him he was sleeping in his car most nights (a car he no longer has because he couldn't afford the upkeep), with a couple nights a week (mid week days) spent in comped rooms and occasionally after a big score he would rent one of those "weekly" apartments for a week or two. I took him in 7 years ago and he pays no rent. Pretty good deal hun? :confused: I certainly don't consider him a "professional poker player". :rolleyes:

    Case #2: My partner. When he followed me to Vegas a year after I relocated, he spent his first year or partial year living in one of those furnished temporary places, until I moved him in with me. But prior to moving in with me, he was playing video poker supplementing his small social security income. He barely had enough to get by...but he did pay his bills, including health costs not covered by medicare. Was he a professional AP? I don't know....I'd say some sort of supplemental AP income. (AP works great for that btw).

    Case #3: Myself early years. Anyone familiar with me, has probably heard me say that I am in my 13th year of professional play, supporting myself solely from AP (mostly blackjack play). In the last 6 years, I have averaged almost exactly 100k. A couple years significantly over, a couple years upper 5 figures, one bad year mid five figures. I own my own home, pay taxes, have medical coverage, just about everything except put much away for retirement. I don't think I will get much argument that I currently qualify as a professional AP.

    But prior to my last 6 years, I was playing lower limits, only blackjack with no supplemental machine play. I averaged earnings of mid five figures, but most of those earning went untouched back into building a large bankroll necessary to play higher stakes. I lived as "tight" as I could. Rented during that time, had no car. Only had healthcare for part of that period. I lived off of 20-25k while reinvesting the rest into future BR. Does that qualify as "professional play"?

    Go back even further...my first 3 year. I started with a bankroll of $4300. This allowed me to play only very low level red chip play at $5 and later $10 tables. (the $10 tables were a big jump for me o_O). During those first 3 years, I earned 31 thousand dollars. That is total....NOT average. :eek: I averaged 10k a year and one of those years was like $9200. :( I managed to pay my half of my modest rent (roommate) and really little else. A lot of 'mac and cheese' dinners and Peanut butter (no Jelly) sandwiches. No health coverage. No car. Does THIS qualify as professional play? Probably not, but I still include it in my 13 years of professional play, or supporting myself solely from AP/blackjack. :p
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2016
    Mooseton likes this.
  4. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Likes:
    1,072
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Larry first...the technical definition of "professional": (of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime. Why is that not enough for you? Why the need to redefine or put further qualifications on it? And why is this label or any label so important to you? :confused:

    Second: A sincere congratulations on your retirement. I hope you have many years of enjoyment and can relax a bit, because you seem way to uptight about non-sensical things. :rolleyes: In other words stop being so.....anal! :p

    And finally....Larry, you will always be a professional to us.....a professional ball washer. ;)
     
  5. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    1,830
    really?
    I have been an employee of a corporation every single day of my professional life
    Most doctors and nurses in hospitals are employees of a corporation

    so only doctors, nurses, and pharmacists in private practice are professionals???

    I didnt realizehttp://www.gamblersglen.com/cgi-bin/teemz/teemz.cgi?board=_master&action=opentopic&forum=General_Discussion&topic=2602

    so anyone self employed making 40k adjusted for location

    i bet alot of lawyers work for some type of incorporated entity....maybe even you MrV
     
  6. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    1,830
    we are not talking about "technical" definitions. I can go to the dictionary and find that its totally acceptable to use the word"fag".

    I smoked a fag:
    or
    I inhaled smoke from a cigarette
    I killed a homosexual
    I gave oral sex to a homosexual

    some would say that they are the same, and according to the dictionary....they can be very different.

    The dictionary can give license to use words in many unexpected and many ways that arent accepted in the real world.
     
  7. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Likes:
    652
    Occupation:
    attorney at law (retired)
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    LarryS, I was making the point that the example you gave involved a Wal-Mart greeter, who is an EMPLOYEE of Wal-Mart.

    Sounds like you are trying to muddy the water as to differentiating professional from employee.

    Go for it.
     

  8. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    1,830
    So is the pharmacist that works for Walmart.
    The both get a paycheck from the same corporate office.

    So again
    an employee of a corporation differentiates a professional from a non professional. Anyone who is self employed like and AP is a professional as opposed to someone who receives a corporate paycheck.

    At walmart....everyone within the 4 wall of the store receives a paycheck from a corporate entity. But as you say,a professional gambler does not have that disqualifier
    A professional gambler makes it or breaks it on his own efforts...no corporate infrastructure according to you...and for some reason thecorporate infrastructure precludes "professionalism".

    And doing something that makes or breaks you ON YOUR OWN....makes you a professional. If that mentally challenged person spent 60 hours a week at a flea market selling socks and pulled in 25k a year and was self sufficient.....he would be a professional according to you because he doesnt get a corporate check and he make and breaks his success. If a guy spend 60 hours a week with a metal detector on beaches....and pulls in 23k a year and is self sufficient....he is a professional.....no corporate check....and he makes or breaks his own success.
     
  9. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2015
    Likes:
    746
    I don't much care about the moniker "professional gambler." To me it is an oxymoron. Call me a heathen. Call me an asshole. I don't care.

    I came from the bottom of it all. Every scum name that exoter and others have ever called me is true. I came from the bottom. I know damn well none of you ever been homeless drifters. I know that kind of life.

    I fought my way from homeless drifter to one of the best AP's on the planet. Everyone has their own things they accomplish in life. I have accomplished mine and still excel at the game.

    Do I give a rat's ass whether I'm considered to be a "professional gambler?"

    Get the fuck out of here.
     
  10. nate

    nate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2016
    Likes:
    361
    Location:
    united states
    Still off on the wrong tangent. No one I know claims to be a professional detectorist, ever. Again, it's not a job. You picked a lousy example for comparisons. Try again. Maybe professional bowlers or something.

    I don't know what quantifies a professional gambler. Never see them listed in WSJ salary comparisons. My gig is a hobby, and has clubs. Only people I've seen making a living of detecting are sales people.

    Pick on some other group with your weird comendating.
    Okay, based on your logic, if I make all my money self employed diving for golf balls on golf courses and selling them to golfers and the courses, and report my income like a good little citizen, then I'm a professional golf ball diver? Seriously?
     
  11. nate

    nate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2016
    Likes:
    361
    Location:
    united states
    Well, that makes a hell of a lot of sense.......a person who tries to make money in a casino by 'gaming' the machines is fine if they make 30 or 40 g's a year and wins free meals but joe blow just goes to burn off his paycheck or anyone else just going to have fun at a casino is a degenerate?

    All those ladies, and college kids blowing off steam and retired teachers...they are all degenerates? Because they can't call themselves professional gamblers? Is that right?
    All that time spent by Ap's and other hard core or addicted gamblers only earn them bragging rights to call themselves professionals. No one outside of gambling even considers gamblers as professionals. Only in their own minds.

    And one more thing, any 'professional' gambler saying they claim every penny of action to the government is a bald faced liar and hypocrite.
     
  12. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    1,830
    according to MRV he would be a professional. First he qualifies because he doesnt get a corporate check. And secondly he controls his fate as far as how successful he is. Those are the 2 qualifiers .
    And according to KJ, anyone who makes money full time.....is a professional. So the golf ball diver satisfies both KJ and MRV's criteria.
    Palm readers that haul in 30k a year in the right local are also professionals
     
  13. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2015
    Likes:
    746
    Not only are we bald face liars and hypocrites but we get all the pussy too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  14. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2015
    Likes:
    1,072
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    "No NOT according to KJ". The definition I gave was from Merriam-Webster and Oxford dictionaries. If you don't like it and for whatever reason, feel you need to redefine it to make yourself feel more important.....take it up with them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016

  15. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Likes:
    652
    Occupation:
    attorney at law (retired)
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I never said that, LarryS: don't twist my words in support of your argument.

    I said "A professional gambler is an individual..."

    Get that?

    "Gambler."

    No others were to be included: only those who are professional gamblers.
     
  16. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Likes:
    463
    Occupation:
    Guess
    Location:
    Las Vegaas
    It's YOU that has adapted your own definition and views of the word means.
    Most people would agree that there's such thing as a professional gambler. A very high percentages of people would call Phil Ivey a professional poker player.

    Again, the courts, the IRS, official documents, history, TV, media, multiple reputable publications consider it a profession.
     
  17. redietz

    redietz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2016
    Likes:
    335
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Axel, you're missing the point. It's Larry(3000 posts)S' forum. He's smarter than courts, the IRS, any reputable publication you can think of, and he defines things more clearly than the Oxford English Dictionary, as displayed in his post above regarding KewlJ. If Larry(3000 posts)S says Phil Ivey ain't a professional, who am I to argue?

    Furthermore, we don't need no overseeing paternal truth-seeking admin on this forum as long as we have Larry (3000 posts)S. Larry(3000 posts)S provides all the truth, justice, and paternalism we require.

    So, Axel, get with the program.
     
  18. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    1,830
    so what is so special about the gambling trade that allows them the 40k per year , full time, and reports income to IRS.....provisions that allow the attachment of the moniker "professional......yet other forms of self employment do not.

    the ball diver, the metal detector guy, the busboy at a mom and pop diner, the guy who sells socks at the flea marketor squeegie men at a busy intersection.....If they all work enough hours they could bring in the 40k requirement or 30k in mississippi and the like.

    Its like when I was a kid, and you can go into the street with your buddies, pick up a stick, and declare that its a gun and that I am a cowboy, because it made us feel good.
    And as adults, some people never outgrow that need. They call themselves "professional" or "executives" and it makes them feel good. So why not. Except today when I see kids pretending to be Cowboys, or Astronauts .....its cute........but when I see adults do it ...its sadly amusing.
    Like I said....people can call themselves what they want...let the buyer beware.

    So its been proven that a corporate paycheck doesnt exclude someone from being called a "professional". So only in the case of gamblers does the 40k/full time/tax reporting requirements come into play? Gamblers are special? The guy who cleans the toilets in Grand Central Station cant get in on the "professional" moniker based . Hell mark cuban doesnt consider himself a professional....he considers himself an entrepreneur.

    If your daughter says she met Mr Right....he is amazing plus he is a professional. Does Mr V think...."Hmmm....professional..... he night be a doctor, lawyer, teacher, gambler making 40k"

    society doesnt view a child with a stick to be a cowboy, nor do they view a full time gambler making 40k as a professional.

    a crack dealer can make alot of money, report income as a "salesman" on tax returns....and he is a professional according to MrV
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  19. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    1,830
    he is a successful poker player
    he is a full time poker player
    he is a successful full time poker player
    he is a profitable poker player

    He is a self proclaimed professional poker player. If you can self proclaim a moniker...chances are its just for show..just to make you feel better.

    I cannot self proclaim myself a registered pharmacist, nurse, police officer, engineer.........

    But I can selfproclaim myself a professional gambler, professional house sitter, professional urinal cleaner, professional golf ball retriever, professional leaflet distributor , professional dog walker.

    If you can self proclaim it, and there is no over-seeing body that can revoke your membership, no standards, no code of conduct, no testing to verify proficiency, no oversight for continuing education to keep up on the everchanging world///////then its not a profession..its just a proclaimed profession. Big difference.

    ANYONE...and I mean anyone can proclaim they are a professional. And that is the antithesis of what professionals are.
    Professionals have a code of conduct, standards of practice. THERE ARE GATEKEEPERS TO LET YOU IN.....you just cant just enter via proclamation

    Phil,Ivey can be convicted of 50 counts of murder..and no one can strip him of his "professional" title.

    because his "professional" title is self bestowed....and once a title is self bestowed....it can last for as long as you like....its all up to you.

    Just like when I was a child I would self bestow the moniker "cowboy"......because it made me feel good.

    If it makes phil Ivey and yourself feel better to see the word "professional" modifying the word gambler, house sitter, dog walker, ...then its fine. It amuses me...doesnt disturb me at all.

    Just like an organ grinder monkey dressed up in a little tuxedo pretending to be human.......non professionals who dress up as professionals by self proclamation //// amuse me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  20. nate

    nate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2016
    Likes:
    361
    Location:
    united states
    Ah, I think I see something here. The universal thing here is anyone receiving money by performing an act can call themselves professionals. The professional 'title' in gambling is actually meaningless as it appears to me to be a 'I'm a professional gambler and I'm better than you' statement. There is no set or official criteria to what a professional gambler is. Therefore, the pseudo gambler making 13 grand a year can be as professional as the gambler making 40 grand a year.

    Sorry, it boils down to bragging rights to me. Specially since no AP will expose themselves in the first place. Y'all can only brag professional to each other. lol Yes SIR, I am a professional AP gambler and the greatest in the world, I just can't tell anyone outside my circle of other AP'rs or any casino I game their systems at. Anyone see the irony?

    I made 1,753.50 this year in casinos. I yam a professional!
    1. 2 a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

    2. 3 : following a line of conduct as though it were a profession <a professional patriot>
     

Share This Page