Blackjack First Counting Experience

Hi all, first time poster here. I'm from Australia and as some of you may know that the bj is mostly unplayable here with CSM's all over the main gaming floors and the HL rooms have poor rules and not so good pen. I have been practicing hi-lo for some time now with about 30 indices. I have been using real cards, shoe and discard tray etc for deck estimation. I also use cvbj which is good as it shows errors but i prefer practicing with the real cards. I am currently in Las Vegas for a 2 week trip with a mate. I have a rental car and will be mostly playing off the strip. I have the current edition of cbjn and i have used excel to weed out all of the 6-5 games and other crappy rules and it looks like i am left with about 25 casinos. I have used google maps to locate them and put them into some sort of roster to play, about 5-6 casinos in each direction. I have a couple of questions and would really appreciate some tips and local knowledge. I will be mostly playing 6D shoes and occasionally DD games. My top bet is about $160 I was wondering if this bet would go unnoticed at most places on the lower limit tables. At 6D i was thinking of spreading $20 at TC1, $60 at TC2, $120 at TC3 and top bet of $160 at TC4 I will stop playing if the count dips to TC-1 On the DD tables i was thinking of spreading up to $150 with the count and dropping back to $15 or $10 in lower counts. It would be something like $25 off the top, $50 at TC2, $100 at TC3 and a top bet of $150 at TC4 If the count drops or doesnt even rise i will bet $15 or $10 back and forth etc to the next shuffle. Do you think these spreads will get much attention from the pit? I know that each casino probably has different stress levels lol Thanks all
Talmadge

 

My apologies for my delayed response. When I first glanced at your post I did not notice the line "I am currently in Las Vegas for 2 weeks". I saw the first line "I'm from Australia" and sort of dismissed it because I know nothing of Australian conditions. Do they allow K-roos to play at the table? They have that great pouch for storing chips. Ok, I am sorry...that was awful.

So moving on....Las Vegas! You've done well. "The advantage of Vegas is quantity not quality". I can't take credit for that quote...it is by "bigplayer", a member of several other BJ sites. But while Vegas has many games, the decent to good games are not on the strip (a few exceptions), so many BJ players visiting never experience them. You need a car to access the better games at the off strip properties spread out all over Vegas. So you get an "A" grade for the car rental.

CBJN is a great tool for identifying some of the better games. But it is only a snapshot in time. The reporters visit each casino once a month usually at the end of the month, so there is no telling how long those conditions are accurate for. You may find places that looked good on CBJN not so good when you get there and occasionally the opposite, you may find something better than reported in CBJN. But it's a good tool and starting point. Another "A" for you.

After weeding out the 6:5, CSM and other crappy rules and conditions, you have identified 25 playable casinos with decent to good rules and conditions. My current rotation of casinos that I play varies from 25 to occasionally 30 or so. At the moment it is 28. So we are pretty close. I probably have a couple that I play that are just barely borderline playable or are only playable because I get some monthly match plays. So you get yet another "A".

So far I haven't been much help, just patting you on the back saying good job.

Ok, while betting thresholds vary from location to location, for the most part at these casinos spread out all over town (we call them the local's casinos as opposed to the tourist casinos on the strip with worse rules/conditions), the bet range and top wager will be fine. Even up to a top wager of $300 -$400 is well tolerated at these places as long as you don't stay for hours showing the same spread over and over. So you should be fine. At a 6 deck game, I like to get my max bet out at TC +4, just as you are doing. If you wait any longer, the frequencies of max bet are much less and you don't get the full benefit.

Here is the one area, I am going to suggest you make some changes. Double deck game. Double deck in Vegas is tricky. It is severely "hawked" or watched. As a local playing regularly I limit my DD play because it is a longevity killer. But as a visitor, you can go for it. Just keep your sessions short and only show your top wager once or twice before leaving.

The $25 of the top, spreading to a max bet of $150 is ok. 1-6 spread. I would forget the dropping to $10 or $15 at negative counts. That makes for a 1-10ish spread and that stands out more. It really doesn't cost that much to stick at $25 for the moderately negative counts.

And here is one little trick that while it seems minor, really has a greater impact than it should as far as heat. Once you play your top wager at DD, which you indicated is $150, and it is time to shuffle, don't go all the way back to your $25 starting bet. Retreating back to the minimum wager really is the biggest give away. It is the most vulnerable time for a counter. That is when we are exposed. Try only retreating back to $50 for that first hand. If you win, stay at $50 and see where the count goes. If you lose that first $50 wager, you can then retreat back to $25. It is just a little bit of cover to avoid that retreating back from $150 to $25 at the first hand, which is the big "tell". And the cost really isn't that much.

Hope this helps. Good luck in Vegas. Don't burn the place down. Remember some of us need to continue to be able to play here after you leave.

 

Kewlj, i want to thank you for your time that you spent writing your very thorough reply and also some humour added aswell. I actually liked the kangaroo pouch joke haha From your response and praise, it looks like i have done my homework about vegas as best as i can from a different country, so that is a good feeling knowing i have done mostly the right things in my planning I have only played DD once so far this trip which was the first day and i did notice that the pit critter seemed to be watching me more than the other players at the table so i guess as you mentioned it was probably my bigger spread that they noticed. They probably didnt act on anything as i was losing and giving away my money to them. I couldnt seem to win a max bet, plus i lost a few max bets to un-insurable backdoor blackjacks. The next time i play DD i will use your advice and try spreading $25-$150 without dropping back to $10-$15 on the negative counts. I will also only drop back to $50 after the shuffle if my max bet was out. Also i will only show my max bet a few times as you mentioned then move on to the next casino. Thanks so much for all of those tips kewlj. I have another couple of questions if you dont mind helping again I had a good shoe today and ended up with about 1.5k in chips from it. It was good to get some back after the DD loss. I know this isnt a huge amount, but i didnt cash out. I just left after that shoe. When i go back to cash out do you think i should cash it all out or in smaller amounts? I guess if i play there again i could use a few chips at the table and see how that goes. One other thing (sorry for this super long message, it is starting to become a novel lol) That last shoe i played, the count rose towards the end and as i was max betting one hand with only one other player there, someone else joined the table so i spread to two hands of 75% my max bet. I was leaving after that shoe anyway so i thought that would be ok. Do you think spreading to two hands is ok if you are leaving straight away after the shoe? Maybe i am thinking and worrying too much considering i am only here for a couple of weeks. I guess because you are based here that you have to be more careful. I have been reading your messages for a while now and want to thankyou for all of your knowledge about this game which you freely help all of us newer players and giving us a glimpse of what it is like playing this game fulltime

 

I would break the 1500 cash out up in to two parts that way each is less that a thousand dollars. $1500 probably wouldn't be a problem either, but breaking it up assures there will be no problem. Cash out 800 or so when you go back and that will leave you with $700. Start out playing with a couple hundred in chips, instead of buying in for cash and have the remaining $500 in your pocket. If you lose your initial chips, just reach in your pocket for more chips, instead of buying in or more cash.

I'll tell you, the spreading to two hands in Vegas is a big deal. Draws much more attention than other places. It is a super big attention getter at double deck, but even at shoe games, I have just eliminated spreading to two hands from my attack. I just stick with one single hand. BUT, as a local, I play the same rotation of casinos and my primary concern is longevity. I think if I was visiting for a week or two, I would still spread to two hands on the shoe games. But go with your gut. If you feel like it is drawing heat, don't do it. You will be surprised how often that gut feeling is right.

 

Kewlj, thanks for the advice on cashing out those chips. I will be going back to that casino in the next couple of days. I like the idea of keeping half the chips in my pocket and using them if i need more chips after losing the initial couple hundred. I've had a few instances now late in the shoe where i have had to rebuy in several times for max bets and i am surprised at how loudly some of these dealers yell out to the pit critters. Hopefully that little trick will keep them quieter.
I will stick with one hand for DD. It looks like at the $25 DD games it is fairly easy to get heads up. I am having a little trouble trying to get onto the lower limit 6D games with not too many other people.
I am trying to not stick out like a sore thumb when i arrive at the casino. I have been walking around the pit looking at the felt layouts to see if the game is 6-5 or 3-2 I also look at how many people are on the tables and check out the pen. I feel like after walking around once or twice i have been getting some stares because i just dont sit down on any old table and begin playing. One time there was an empty 6D table with the dealer standing there waiting for someone to play. I couldnt check the pen because he doesnt cut until someone sits down and buys in. I bought in, cut then he cut and put the cards in the shoe. I immediately picked up my chips and walked off as the cut he gave was not good. I think that may of looked strange. I am now seeing first hand how much more to this game there is besides the counting aspect of it. I take my hat off to yourself and others who do this fulltime

 

Hi all, thought i'd give an update on how my first card counting trip went. I had a great time in vegas. As soon as i got off the plane i could feel the excitement in the air which vegas offers. All of my practice and prep at home paid off as i was able to keep the count against all of the dealers i played with. I remembered all of my indices and betting ramps while at times doing this under pressure from rebuying in and pit watching etc. It was great experiencing first hand the swings of the game in both directions.

Even though i had a list of casinos to play and a roster of days to play them, i felt like i wasted a little time trying to find good games/pen once inside the casino. I was trying to not stick out like a sore thumb while looking for a table to sit down at. I would walk around the pit looking to see what tables were 3-2, aswell as how many players were at each table and then try and see what the pen was like. Sometimes it would be quite a while before i would sit down to play or other times i wouldnt find a good game, so i would leave and onto the next casino. I can now tell that every casino has different conditions depending on the time of the day. Early morning when it is quiet may not be as good as it sounds as there may only be unplayable games open.
I did have a couple of problems while on this trip and would appreciate some advice and tips, but it is difficult to mention as this is an open forum. I lost a whole chain property to play while on this trip within the first couple of days.
Another thing i noticed was the dealers calling out checks play as soon as you start betting $100 or more, even if you are just betting 4 greens. I was under the impression that they only called out if you were betting black chips.
I also found out how useful it is to keep chips after a session and then the next time you play that casino just pull them out of your pocket and begin playing. A good way to lessen the interaction with the pit.
I will be back and i appreciate any tips or advice that i can receive before my next trip to vegas. If there is any way to communicate other than the open forum i can tell you more about the chain i lost and what happened. Thanks all Talmadge

 

Glad to hear you had a great time in Vegas Talmadge. Sorry to hear you got trespassed at one of the chains though. That sucks. I don`t have 300 posts yet, so I can`t initiate personal messages on here to be able to hear your story. I don`t have any experience in that particular area anyway though, so I doubt I`d be able to tell you anything all that valuable or that you didn`t already know. Yes, even with a combo of reds and greens dealers will yell out the checks play if it all adds up to $100. That was something I didn`t know when I started either; I thought it was just for blacks as well. When you mentioned the game selecting you made me think of something I can give you some helpful advice about. If you didn`t already think of it, make sure before you schedule another trip here to check the events and conventions (you can google the LV Convention Center and it`ll list the schedule with how many estimated attendees will be there) that will be going on first. Try to avoid all the big events, conventions, and also holidays. Some of the conventions they have here are just gargantuan and sometimes there will be something like an extra 80,000 visitors in the city. Not only are the tables more full of course, but casinos will put out more 6:5 games since they know there will be more people playing as well. In some cases every single one of the 3:2 games in a casino will be replaced by 6:5 ones. I don`t think this is really much of an issue at the non-strip casinos at least that I`ve seen, but they may do this to some smaller extent.

 

Thanks SplitFaceDisaster for that advice about the conventions in vegas. Next time i will check in advance if any conventions will be happening during the time i was planning on heading out again and if they are, maybe i will choose different dates. 80 000 extra people in town is a huge difference!!! The way casinos operate, that really doesnt surprise me how they replace the 3-2 tables with 6-5 while the convention is in town. Just trying to gouge as much profit as they can during the convention. One thing i noticed while on my trip was that there seemed to be just as many people playing on the 6-5 tables as there was on the 3-2 tables. As long as people keep playing 6-5 i cant see the casinos removing it any time soon.

 

Yeah you`re right; people here play 6:5 tables as if there`s very little difference between the two. Such a shame that they don`t know better, and more of a shame that casinos can keep capitalizing on it because of the amount of ignorance. Recently I heard someone say something like "oh look, a real 3:2 blackjack table, let`s sit down". They obviously weren`t counters from their play, so at least there are some civilians that know what a rip-off 6:5 tables are. Let`s hope the epidemic doesn`t get worse!