Feedback A Poster is Publicly Lying

We are giving the chat room thread more leeway to contain the vitriol within that thread so that it doesn't metastasize to the rest of the site. That being said, we would agree that invoking dead family members (particularly where it is irrelevant to gambling) is a bit too much even for the looser chat room thread.

However, please do keep in mind that ultimatums don't work with us as we make decisions independent of them, and this is especially the case when it comes from a member whose contributions to this community are mainly limited to the chat room.

We have sanctioned the offending post accordingly. In the future, please use the Report link at the bottom of offending posts to bring them to our attention.

 

Looser as in more loose as in more relaxed.

 

That's simply not our job here. Our job is to protect the community, not to protect an individual member or to get involved in personal feuds. We are not the arbiters of the truth. We have no idea regarding the truth of that matter. That doesn't concern us. Our community and site rules are what concern us. What you may personally need is not the same as what the community as a whole needs.

That is between you and them. Not us. We are not here to pick sides or do anyone's bidding.

Yes, for two reasons. One, because we automatically know for a fact that it is false, so we don't need to take anyone's word or pick sides or make any assumptions. Second, because such false accusations against us are intended to harm the community as a whole since we are the guardians of this community.

Correct, because we and our site represent all members. We would ask you to prove it since we know you would not be able to since it is false, and we would then point out how you were not able to provide any evidence for it precisely because it is false. If you continued to force us to chase you around the site to correct false accusations against us and waste our resources and demonstrating a clear intent to harm this community, we would give you a final 48 hours to provide evidence to support your latest false accusation and then we would label your account as a Compulsive Liar with links in your Signature directing readers to posts where such false accusations were made without being able to back them up so that we would no longer have to waste resources chasing you around to correct accusations that we know for a fact are untrue. What is harmful to us is harmful to the site is harmful to all members, so when our resources are purposefully and continuously wasted by such trolling, we put an end to it. The "Compulsive Liar" tag is not intended for members lying about other members, it's intended to protect our community as a whole from trolls.

We never said you only contributed in the chat room. We indicated you mainly do so. We appreciate your other contributions outside of the chat room even though they were not substantial. The vast majority of your participation here over the past year has been in the chat room.

It's not a site rule or requirement for such performance to be verified. However, those that do generate a lot more credibility than those that do not, so if a member wishes to be believed by readers, then verifying their claims is the best way to do that and we fully encourage it even though we don't require or demand it. We do not have gambling-related knowledge, so we are not in a position to determine what is true and what is not when it comes to gambling matters. That is for our members to do as we are a free, open, and uncensored community.

We know for a fact that that is a lie, and that false accusation would damage the community, so you would be dealt with publicly as explained above.

It's an apples to Earth comparison. If we involved ourselves in gambling discussions, then you would have a valid point. Perhaps you are accustomed to other gambling forums where the Administrators participate in the gambling discussions so you feel they are on equal footing. That is not the case here. We are the guardians of this community and we do not involve ourselves in any gambling discussions here. As such, we are here to ensure the core principles and rules of the site are honored at all times and that the community as a whole is protected, not any individual member. Thusly, it is not apt to compare false accusations against an individual member versus false accusations against the guardians of this community because the former only damages the individual whereas the latter damages the entire community.

We will not become the arbiters of the truth regarding gambling-related discussions, but we absolutely are the arbiters of the truth concerning this site.

We strongly believe that having an impartial Administration of a gambling site where the Administrators do not get involved in the gambling discussions and treat all members equally is extremely beneficial to ensuring unbiased truths always rise to the surface in any discussions. It is far too easy for Administrators of a site to manipulate the discussion to promote their biases. The biggest example of this has been Twitter, recently revealed in the Twitter Files to have been doing biased censorship. It does not matter what side one is on, all members should be able to agree that having impartial Administrators that don't involve themselves in gambling discussions and that never take sides is a net positive for the community and for the truth, and the more removed the Administrators are, the better.

We completely understand that you may feel this is not fair since we are not protecting your individual interests while we go out of our way to protect the communities interests. However, since we don't abuse our power to win gambling arguments by avoiding any participation in such activites, invoking us through lies is by definition intended to damage the community, which is why we don't tolerate it since the intent is clearly malicious against the community.

If we attempted to become the arbiters of the truth concerning gambling and personal feuds, we would have to make various judgement calls we are not equipped to make, which would lead to countless mistakes that would manipulate the truth.

You -- like all members -- are of course free to publicly demand your false accusers present evidence to back up their false accusations against you, and then point out when they have failed to do so in order to impugn their credibility which then diminishes the impact of their false accusation. We just won't do it for you or any other member.

In short, we will not become the arbiters of the truth between members, but we absolutely are the arbiters of the truth concerning this site. We trust that clearly explains the discrepancy you pointed out, even if you don't agree with it.

Please see our answer to member redietz above as the same applies.


Folks, an indication that we are being genuinely impartial is when 2 members who tend to be on opposite sides of arguments such as members redietz and Mdawg complain about the same issue. It tells us we are remaining unbiased and not favoring one side or another.

 

We will not tag as Compulsive Liars any member that does not lie about us or our site, or even those that lie about us or our site occasionally. It's only members that lie about us repeatedly to troll us and waste our resources that get labeled as Compulsive Liars so that their tag and Signatures follow them on every post so that we don't have to chase after them to correct the record on each repeated lie about us or our site which are so damaging to the community.

This is not true at all. The accusations were very specific in nature with no subjectivity involved whatsoever. See each of those cases below:

SteveH: He falsely claimed we were behind the iHeartRoulette member criticizing him without ever proving it after repeatedly violating our rules. There is nothing "subjective" about that, it's a direct and completely false accusation because we were not behind the iHeartRoulette member or any other member. Repeatedly falsely accusing the Administrators of a community that they are using sock puppets to discredit any competition is incredibly damaging to the community because it plants a seed of doubt in every member that they are not engaging in good faith discussions and that that site is being manipulated by those in power. SteveH apologized here for that completely false accusation but still falsely accuses us of being someone else and will not remove that false accusation until we remove the negative posts about him on this site written by other members which we will of course not do as that would violate our uncensored core principle. Summary: This member has been proven to be a compulsive liar. Read more here and here.

LarryS: Repeatedly falsely claimed we had banned him. Again, there is nothing "subjective" about that, it's a direct and completely false accusation because he was never banned here. Falsely accusing Administrors of an "uncensored" site and which specifically does not ban members is incredibly damaging to the site because it means our word cannot be trusted and that we actually censor here and violate one of our core principles. He confused a temporary database error with his being banned. All he had to do was provide a screenshot of his banning, not a generic site error common on all sites, and he was unable to do that because he was never banned. Summary: LarryS was proven to be a compulsive liar. Read more here, here, here, and here.

Junket King: Repeatedly falsely claimed we were moderating him and not showing his posts after he repeatedly violating our rules. Again, there is nothing "subjective" about that, it's a direct and false accusation because he was never moderated here. He was slowed down for creating sock puppets to like and support his own posts, but never moderated. All he had to do to prove he was being moderated was a screenshot showing their post in question was live on the site and viewable to them but not viewable to the rest of the members (e.g. by checking it logged-out), but of course he never provided such easy proof because he was never actually moderated here. Summary: This member was caught with multiple accounts liking and supporting their own posts. Their additional lies about the moderation are not supported by facts. This member has been proven to be a compulsive liar.

Boz: Stopped repeatedly falsely accusing us of being scammers without proof, and so we lifted his tag several years ago.

It's all there for anyone to read since we don't delete posts here.

In each case, the member in question repeatedly violated our site rules and repeatedly made false accusations about us that they could not prove in order to troll us and attempt to damage this community. None of them were tagged as Compulsive Liars on their first or even second false accusations. They were tagged after it became clear they were going to keep trolling this community by repeating those false accusations without ever providing evidence in order to have us chasing them around and wasting resources to correct the record. The Compulsive Liar tag and signature now chases them around for us automatically so that no resources need to be wasted.

The burden of proof is always on the false accuser, not on the falsely accused. Proving a negative is quite often impossible, which is why false accusations are such a common trolling tool. Even more so the case when you consider that -- as the saying goes -- a lie will go round the world while truth is pulling its boots on. But take LarryS for example, he confused a database error message with a ban, and didn't even bother to google it to realize just how common that error is across the internet since there are so many sites using the same software. Junket King did the same with a CloudFlare error thinking it meant he was being moderated when it was just their error message that we were down. The same error message, mind you, that you sent us recently when you alerted us that our site goes down occasionally, yet you are not being moderated here. They both created red herrings from relatively common site errors in order to continue to convince others we were not trustworthy and to troll us. Since we cannot prove a negative, we at least proved -- in the case of LarryS, for example -- that the message is a common site error by providing a search link of it to Google results. There's not much more we can do to prove negatives, which is why the burden of proof will always be on those that falsely accuse us and lie about us.

This is true until the last part which is false. That is not the end of it since we don't close threads here. In your thread, you had the last word and you can continue to have more last words. We just won't engage as we consider that matter sufficiently clarified from our end and the record set sufficiently straight. You are absolutely right that we will fully engage with members in back and forths and we see no issue with such thorough, clear, and respectful communication between Administrators and members. Ignoring members invoking us is not a solution. Closing such threads against us is not a solution. Moderating or banning members against us is not a solution. Clear and thorough communication is the solution, but when members take advantage of that to troll us with repeated false accusations to waste our resources, that is when it becomes a taggable offense so that we stop wasting resources. Remember that we always give such members 48 hours to prove their false accusation, and they fail every time precisely because the repeated accusations of those few members are false.

You have to understand, we have a lot of experience running forums and sites. We understand that it is human nature to want to battle against any kind of authority. We have no problem with that until it becomes clear that a member's intention is solely to damage this community.

Not responding to false accusations makes them seem true. We prefer to respond, and we prefer to do so quickly and thoroughly and clearly to not give any potential seeds of doubt time to germinate and multiply.

But you are completely wrong about the thickness of our skin. Any member can insult us or our community as much as they want and they won't be sanctioned for it. We have a long record of this. Also, see this from 2017:

In fact, we prefer that members insult us instead of each other so that they can get it out of their system so that it doesn't spill over to gambling threads.

This is not true. Again, see your thread here. Note again that we didn't tag you as a Compulsive Liar when you created an extensive thread directed at us. You didn't keep trying to troll us endlessly and waste our resources, so the tag was not necessary. You said your piece, we said ours, we let you have the last word, you didn't experience any repercussions whatsoever, and your thread is still open for anyone else to add to it.

The burden for being tagged is very high because we don't do so lightly, only when it is very clear the member is not going to stop trolling us and wasting our resources. We always gave them and everyone the opportunity to say their piece about as, but when they keep making the same false accusation repeatedly and without evidence is when the intent to damage this community becomes clear and the tagging required to save our resources and mitigate the damage to the community

Remember, as the guardians of this community, damaging us by definition damages the community since it puts into question the core principles, credibility, and trustworthiness of this site. This is why we never let false accusations about us stand without a response from us.

Fair and subjective criticism of us is of course allowed and we encourage it in this Feedback section that we specifically created for it.

Have a legitimate criticism about us, our moderation style, or any other aspect of our site? Create a thread about it and let's discuss it openly and productively together with the community to work together to improve the site.

Repeated false accusations about us, however, serve no purpose other than to waste our resources and damage this community which is why we can't allow such repeated trolling -- and only such repeated trolling -- to continue untagged. Note that all tagged members have a custom Signature created by us linking to the offenses that lead to the tagging in order to have full transparency so that all readers can draw their own conclusions. 3 members out of thousands represents less than 0.05% tagged and more than 99.95% untagged. That's because less than a handful of members have been proactively intent on damaging this community, fortunately.

If members always gave us the benefit of the doubt instead of always assuming the worst of us, they would quickly see that having an Admin Team that knows nothing about gambling and that doesn't get involved in gambling discussions and that only cares about improving the site for the benefit of the entire community is by far the best way for a gambling forum to be run, particularly when that gambling forum is run on the core principles of being independent, comprehensive, and uncensored. Anything other than that opens the door to conflicts of interest where power can be abused to manipulate opinions on gambling matters. Our core principles are sacred, which is why we are always forced to defend ourselves thoroughly and clearly when we are unfairly invoked, as we have just done with this response.

 

We certainly want it to be well-known that this is how we will always respond when unfairly invoked because that will of course make it less likely that folks will unfairly invoke us in the future. So being predictable in this very manner is by design, and we hope it also serves as an example to all members of how to respond respectfully to unfair critique by dissecting a post, refuting each point with logic and supporting evidence, and then tying it all together without hurling a single insult. The truth of the matter is, we don't want to be invoked at all or even mentioned unless it's in this Feedback section and about how to improve the site for the benefit of the community as a whole (which of course includes fair and actionable criticism). That's our only concern and raison d'être.