Baccarat Beat The Casino Forum Opinion

Apparently it was posted on BTC by someone.

 

I had the benefit of an all too brief mentorship by Norm Allen RIP. His play was not mechanical. He loathed Negative Progressions with a passion which set him at odds with Ellis. His one concession to increasing his unit size was that once he hit +3...he would move to a 1 2 Loop/progression. Mostly that entailed winning the 1 unit bet before making the 2 unit bet (effectively a Positive Progression) TBH...it doesn't seem to affect the Player Advantage all that much whether the Loop is played as a Positive Progression or as a continuous 1 2 Loop with the proviso of not making a 2 bet following a losing 2 unit bet without first winning a 1 unit bet. Note: Neither version of the loop seems to affect your PA much long-term over simply Flat Betting. Despite Ellis's protestations to the contrary...if you aren't winning by Flat Betting, then there is not a Negative Progression in the world that will turn you into a long-term winner.
He was a great believer in letting the shoe dictate the best bets. He would not bet every hand but only when he believed the odds were in his favour. He started with a relatively small Bankroll betting $25 units to a Bankroll of over $2million (betting $5K units and over) within 2 years.

Ellis continually points to Norm as evidence of his systems working when in truth...apart from the basics, Ellis had very little to do with Norm's success. In fact...the two of them were at odds because Norm believed strongly that "Mechanical Systems" don't work and "Negative Progressions" are a licence to lose money.
As a protege of Norm and his partner in crime (who helped develop "Follow The Shoe") ...I can confirm that FTS does work but by it's very nature of being non-mechanical takes a lot of hard work...dedication and time before becoming a consistent winner.

Re: Beat The Casino...Ellis has had nothing to do with BTC for a few years and even though the original Systems are still available...few Players use them as the whole Forum has moved in the direction that Norm pioneered. New players are being constantly cautioned that there is no easy fix (as distinct from the "learn to win in 30 mins" BS) The members do however have possibly the best Baccarat and Roulette Practice tool available in that real casino shoes have been uploaded and can be played at your own speed hand by hand (or spin by spin) complete with Toteboard. To those that might want to point out that there are numerous RGN sites that perform the same function...without meaning to offend...there is no comparison. Despite what the maths gurus say...there is a huge difference between RGN's and real live casino shoes. (remembering that these same all-knowing math gurus would also say that what Norm achieved was impossible)
BTC is certainly not going to be everyone's cup of tea...the outrageous claims by Ellis have been dumped...there is an acknowledgement that Mechanical Fixes won't cut it and Negative Progressions are something that you wouldn't wish on your mother-in-law...but the downside is also an acknowledgement that it takes time and much practice to win at the casino. There are no longer any Vegas Seminars with outrageous charges (they left with Ellis) but there is generally an invitation extended to come to one of the Baccarat "crawls" and watch the members in action.

As I said...a few years ago...Ellis moved on to a new Forum which he part owns which allows him to keep designing new and better systems (read...faster ways of losing money) and charging $1K and more to the terminally gullible looking for a quick fix. I have every so called infallible system he has designed (courtesy of disgruntled members) and is trying to flog off and in every case...it took me less than a few hours testing to prove his claims wrong. Even his famed ANB which was to be the "system to end all systems" crashed and burned. I was kinda disappointed in that because there is a lazy side of my nature that lives in hope that one of these infallible systems will actually work because Baccarat...the way I play it...makes my head hurt.

Cheers
Johnno

 

Yes, that is true. Norm Allen used an approach called "follow the shoe" The details are on BTC. It's not a mechanical system and takes effort to learn. Once perfected it yields several units per shoe without negative progressions.

 

Can anyone here explain Norm's strategy? Or the 2-2-1 strategy from BTC?

 

Norm's strategy was follow the shoe (FTS). There is a lot to it. It's not mechanical so it can't be explained so easily. And because it's not mechanical is why it is so effective.You know where to get it if you really want it. Let me just tell you that I know players who were stuck at 2-3 units a shoe, who are now at 12 to 20 units a shoe. The highest progression is 2 units AND it's a positive progression not negative. So you never bet 2 units unless you've already won one unit.
There is a rhym and reason for every bet and you only play about 50% of all the hands in the shoe.

 

2-2-1 is available free all over the Internet. It's not a good system and requires a huge bank roll and in occasion makes 20 unit wagers to win 1 unit. Not good.

 

I couldn't agree more. There is a heap of verifiable evidence that Norm turned a modest starting Bankroll utilising $25 chips to over $2million and $5K chips in slightly less than 2 years. Sure, he used his 1 2 Loop when ahead in the shoe but that wasn't the reason he won. He would have still hit $2million Flat Betting (just would have taken longer) because his "Bet Selection" was so good.
My message to anyone who states that Bet Selection doesn't work in Baccarat is..."Tell that to Norm...and his Bank Manager"...LOL (Norm of course has since passed on and no disrespect is intended)

BTW: Norm also recognised the limitations of using RGN's...He emphasised to me that RGN's were useless for practising Baccarat as whatever the mathematicians say...he had 2 million reasons proving them wrong...which is why rather than use RGN's...he spent untold hours night after night playing shoes over the phone (so that he couldn't cheat) with his Baccarat buddy.
He also loathed Negative Progressions with a passion and counselled many, many players to avoid them. He recognised that very few could play as he was playing as it wasn't a quick fix and required dedication...patience...time etc. I don't know if he was the best ever, but I seriously doubt that any other player has achieved so much in such a relatively short period of time.

 

Thanks for all the helpful replies! I took up baccarat after reading Lyle Stuart’s book and made 3500.00 in a few weeks which was not bad for one that was tired of playing NL holdem and watching unreasonably large variances in my bankroll due to bad beats and lucky suckouts.

My goal is to improve my play by asking good questions while comparing/contrasting my style with others. I don’t bet every hand and loathe negative progressions. That is my reason for inquiring regarding Norm’s style.

 

$3500 is not to be sneezed at. You did well. Your attitude to NP's is a huge plus and despite the fragile egos at play on this Forum who say different...I can confirm that Baccarat can be beaten by Flat Betting with minimum risk. Baccarat is my sole source of income and has been for some time. Don't let the negativity of those know-alls claiming that no amount of selective betting can win long-term. They all have one thing in common...They are losers and the thought that someone might actually win at this game drives them to distraction. Norm led the way...taught me and others and the list of winners is growing while the naysayers grovel in their negativity.
I wish you luck in your journey...Take care
Johnno

 

When I read Lyle’s book, the point that impressed me was how shoes run in general. 1’s approximately 51% 2’s approximately 24% and so forth. That is all the info that I had to play by and it turned out well.

I usually play at the Gold Coast when in Vegas where there are 5 EZ baccarat tables. I like the idea of no commission.

 

There is much more to learn than that...single opps are unreliable little suckers despite their statistical frequency. 2's and 2+'s are more reliable...but quite honestly ...I would advise a heap more practice with real Casino Shoes before risking real money. Stay the heck away from RGN's because I don't know a single winning player that would even think of using them...absolute rubbish and a waste of time and are purely for mathematicians and losers.

 

In general, I disregard the 1’s until later in the shoe if at all. I agree that 2’s and 2+ are more reliable, in general. RNG’s are random generated numbers?

There are casinos near here with 25 minimum where I play. The last time I played I was down 4 units and got all units back plus a profit, all by flat betting.

 

RGN's are Random generated numbers and are worse than useless for practice. I rarely ever hit -4 and given that I start the shoe with half units. . it would be -2 full units and I would take the loss and exit the shoe. But if I was in your situation and recovered from -4 to zero...I walk away at zero..Shoe is half played so not much point in continuing, so I look for another table. It's all about risk minimisation...

 

That is why I like the Gold Coast in that there are around 15 tables which gives me plenty of choices.

 

Anybody who says they are beating a negative EV game with any kind of betting system is a liar and/or trying to sell worthless garbage!

 

LOL...I haven't got anything that I could sell. I Follow the Shoe as taught by Norm Allen. I couldn't begin to teach people what I do and have no interest in doing so. It is an accepted fact that Norm Allen did exactly what you say is impossible.There are way too many witnesses for it to be denied. I also know several players who are using the same principles and are winning consistently (Note: I said principles because there is no system that beats Baccarat) and each of us would play the same shoe slightly different.
You really sound like just another perennial loser bitter at the world because you can't win at the casino and have to justify yourself by denigrating those that do. If it makes you feel better...go ahead...it is of no matter or importance to me.
All that I have done is caution a member (who asked for advice) about risking real money in a Casino until he is totally confident in what he is doing. I advised him against Negative Progressions and only a total Baccarat retard would say otherwise and I also advised him against using RGN's which again...only a total Baccarat retard would say otherwise.
Have a nice day
Johnno

 

Why are you here if you have no winning strategy and believe that one can't win consistently?

 

I have seen it as RNG but both terms are the same. I am purchasing seven more decks to put together a baccarat deck for practice. I thought about it awhile back and didn't follow through. Thanks for the reminder!!

 

I'm not advocating any of their systems but BTC does have in my opinion the best Baccarat Practice tool on the net. Real Casino shoes that can be played one hand at a time with a progressive Toteboard. (No RG BS) It's not by any means a Holy Grail but an excellent practice tool. Can save a heap of time for a serious player. There are no longer any systems for sale on BTC which I see as a good thing because all mechanical systems will eventually crash and burn. The systems once espoused by the former part owner are still available but the BTC community will actively try to dissuade people from using them for the reasons that I have already posted.
In any case...the choice is always yours and practicing with your own Baccarat 8 deck set can do nothing but help your cause.
I would caution you though about hitting the casino with real money without first getting in a heap of practice and research. If possible join up with an online Live Dealer casino that allows FREE play ...An excellent practice tool and while you are at it...Screenshot every Toteboard you see and before you know it, you will have your own substantial Databank which will enable you to flick through shoes at will.
I wish you luck and would encourage you to ignore the naysayers that say Baccarat can't be beaten. They simply come across as bitter losers that simply do not believe that there are people out there that actually win because they can't.

Johnno

 

I have literally hundreds of hours at the baccarat tables. However, more practice will only make me a better player.

Thanks!