1. Have a gambling question?

    Post it here and our gambling experts will answer it!
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Welcome to the #1 Gambling Community with the best minds across the entire gambling spectrum. REGISTER NOW!
  3. Join our $5,000 Cash Giveaway!

    Win Cash by Posting and Inviting New Members!

Misc Is there such a thing as a "professional" gambler? Are Advantage Players "professionals"?

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous Gambling Forum' started by MrV, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Likes:
    95
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I'm sorry, but the notion of someone being a "consummate professional" slot machine player makes about as much sense as someone being a "consummate professional" craps player.

    All I can do is chuckle and say "Really?"

    Use of the term "consummate professional" would elevate that sort of activity to a pedestal where, frankly, it does not belong.
     
  2. Exoter175

    Exoter175 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Likes:
    2
    Location:
    Eveywhere
    And that's your opinion based on guys you've met, and you're not wrong. I'm different, though, and you know that without having met me. I value things differently, I hold certain things higher than others.

    You and I argued about these same things over on WoV MrV, its just now refreshing my memory. Perhaps Consummate Professional isn't he word you'd use, but lets be honest, most of these guys are nothing short of trailer trash, garbage picking, bottom feeders.

    Do I strike you as someone who would sit there and buffalo hunt my way through a casino like Mickey Crimm did for years? Of course not, I value my time.

    Point is, MrV, there's a difference between guys like Myself, Mickey, and Axel, and guys like IBYA, DetroitMike, and Tringolmane. Having said that, I have nothing against Tringlomane, he's a smart guy, but his experience stops at Vulturing, and he's a very obvious and deliberate vulture at that. its for that reason I approached him in the first place, and pumped him for information.
     
  3. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    250
    Can you imagine real "professionals" speaking this way.
    You know a registered pharmacist, a credentialed teacher, a lawyer, doctor, police officer, .....speaking among their peers differentiating the trailer trash pharmacists from the consummate professional pharmacists, or the trailer trash teachers vs the consummate professionals.
    There may be gradations of expertise or experience or competence. But not this all or nothing bullshit where either someone is one of my group or is trailer trash.

    And in real professions....the "consummate professionals" arent coming on message boards blowing their own horn and telling people how much better they are than others. Pissing contests is something professionals in general would rather not get involved in.

    In fact real professionals dont need nameless faceless people to believe that they are successful. They can live their lives just fine without the acknowledgement of strangers who have nothing to do with them. Anyone can go online and google salary ranges for professionals.

    I cant imagine if there was a CPA website, there would be Cpas coming on the site and bragging how much money they make in corporate practice, and that the cpa's fucking around with preparing taxes are the trailer trash of the profession.

    There is no over-seeing governing body that deems some one a professional slot player. A crack dealer in a stained t-shirt, who hasnt bathed in 4 days, with an oozing cold sore on his lip, and drool coming down his chin as he is strung out on drugs....can proclaim that he his a professional slot player, he can proclaim that he is an AP...he can even proclaim that he is the "consummate" professional slot player or AP.....and there is no one of authority to say otherwise.

    a CONSUMATE PROFESSIONAL AP, can pull out his dick at a slot machine and masturbate...and all that might happen is that he/she(to be fair to transgenders) geths thrown out, or arrested.....but never lose the self proclaimed moniker....consummate professional AP.

    Its all self proclaimed and self congratulatory.

    My son...the consummate professional paperboy.....
    My son...the consumate profession human billboard dude
    My son...the consumate professional flyer on car windshield puter on-er
    My SON....the consummate professional greeter at walmart

    I guess he could even be a consummate professional slot player using that type of criteria.
     
  4. Ozzy

    Ozzy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Likes:
    13
    Location:
    Detroit
    Larry at his finest LMFAO!!
     
  5. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Likes:
    95
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    I wish all who play slots and consider themselves AP's the best of luck; in fact, I doff my hat to you guys.

    But "consummate professional?"

    That term would elevate its (alleged) members to the ranks of the foremost brain surgeons, litigators, and Formula 1 drivers, guys whose ability is measured by quantifiable and objective criteria.

    I don't doubt that Exoter 175 and others have insights and knowledge about many games: if you spent enough time at anything you can usually get pretty good at it, but how can you rise above the rabble to be a "professional?"

    In whose eyes?

    By what criteria?

    If you guys really are making the same bread you'd make if you spent the equivalent time, effort and money on other more traditional methods of employment, then again I doff my cap to you.

    Riddle me this: if you really want to be considered a professional, why not pursue a vocation that traditionally has its members considered as such?

    Slot AP seems like a helluva lot of work for an uncertain reward: hard to do financial planning with that endeavor.
     
  6. Exoter175

    Exoter175 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Likes:
    2
    Location:
    Eveywhere
    Now I remember you from WoV, the whole "But what could you do in a field of work in X or Y".

    I don't care if I'm viewed as a professional MrV, I'm good at what I do, likely the best at what I do, and that's absolutely enough for me to hang my hat on. Having said that, I'm not entirely sure what you have against Slot AP's, but would you consider the possibility that not all AP's are alike in their chosen profession?

    You have a weird obsession with what people do with their time, MrV.
     
  7. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Likes:
    41
    Occupation:
    Guess
    Location:
    Las Vegaas
    Larry didn't you claim you were some winning sports and horse betting guru or something like that? IIRC that's why I was astonished when you claimed you didn't know who Floyd Mayweather was.
    ------------------------------------------
    Actually they do the same things in all professions. How many other non gambling sites do you frequent?

    Unfortunately there's a lot more BS with gambling in general and that oozes into AP.
    Any fucktard can falsely claim they are a professional at various things, but other professionals can usually figure out that they are full of shit. It's actually easier for a professional gambler to spot a fake then it is for many other fields for a professional to spot a fake. You can easily tell what level and knowledge they have. You can usually tell if someone is just doing the math and talking about it VS actually making a living at it.

    I don't care if people think it's a real profession or not, the money comes in either way.
    I DO care if someone is faking it because they give others a bad name.
    Half the shit you read is inflated, you can tell who's inflating crap and who isn't. I normally just keep my mouth shut unless they are an obvious troll or spewing total BS. I'm certain that someone at WOV was inflating/ over exaggerating his 8 years of making a living on AP or he wasn't doing it right. Turns out I was on the mark.

    I have meet up with guys who claim this or that about themselves and AP blah, blah, blah. Then you put something really good in their lap and they quickly fold as they fumble with words and lint falls from their pockets. I actually ran into that multiple times during the Plaza play.
     
  8. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    250
    Sure ...not all self proclaimed APs are "alike". Keeping in mind making money has zero to do with the moniker "professional". A doctor can open up a practice and not make a profit for a few years. Is not he still a "professional". So the making of money has zero to do with the "professional" status.

    With that out of the way I dont see where any venture where you can self proclaim your status as a professional is indeed a profession.
    Its like people who self proclaim themselves "expert"
    There are alot of people who self proclaim themselves to be professionals or experts......and much fewer real credentialed professionals with an over-seeing body that dis-allows self proclamations into said profession.

    replace professional AP....with full-time AP ...and thats a valid descriptor

    consummate full time AP.......thats better. There are no professional standards for APs except for the standards that each individual devises.
    And a self proclaimed professional AP that is a convicted child molesting drug addict, will claim different standards for his make believe profession than a multimillionaire AP that lives a pious life,and donates all his winnings to charity. A profession that has its standards to be in the eye of the beholder....has no standards at all
     
  9. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Likes:
    41
    Occupation:
    Guess
    Location:
    Las Vegaas
    The IRS makes special requirements and guidelines and forms specifically for professional gamblers so as long as they consider certain people professionals that's all that matters.
     
  10. Exoter175

    Exoter175 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Likes:
    2
    Location:
    Eveywhere
    That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Having said that, a doctor, to become a doctor, and then a professional, must commit extensive time and resources to his craft, no? How about a Lawyer? CPA? You catch my drift, larry? You can't be good at what I do, without the knowledge of what I do, and the understanding of what I do. You don't have to be a genius, but it helps, sure, but like a Doctor, Lawyer, CPA, etc. you have to put in the time to gain the knowledge to then output experience, do they not?

    I'm a professional because of the way I go about my business, Larry, not because I claim it, and not because I've put in 8 years of schooling, 12 years of work, and passed an exam or earned a diploma. I'm a professional because of my knowledge, experience, commitment to the craft.

    Does a woodworker need to get a PHD in shop class to be considered a professional? No. Being a professional is about your attitude, how you treat those around you, and how you handle the ups and downs of your chosen craft.

    If you can't see that, I can't change your mind, and I won't attempt to. You'll just have to agree to disagree on the view of professionalism.
     
  11. redietz

    redietz Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2016
    Likes:
    34
    Location:
    Tennessee
    What Axel just said is obvious. I wait with bated breath for the opining that will argue against this.
     
  12. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Likes:
    41
    Occupation:
    Guess
    Location:
    Las Vegaas
    How would one prove themselves a professional artist? I would assume either others dubb you such or you make a living.

    One could argue Jackson Pollock was anything but a professional artist. You probably couldn't tell his art from accidental paint spills unless it was signed or known he had made it.

    He made a living doing it and other "experts" say its so. It doesn't matter what the Larry's of the art world say.
     
  13. Exoter175

    Exoter175 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2016
    Likes:
    2
    Location:
    Eveywhere
    What are you on about, honestly? What does this have to do with Axel or myself being AP's? Even being professionals?

    Because you don't agree? Because you can't do it? Alright, state that, but don't pretend like you don't have a stance while beating a drum while you march on.
     
  14. redietz

    redietz Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2016
    Likes:
    34
    Location:
    Tennessee
    Hey LarryS, you ignored the IRS angle. What brilliant subjective response do you have up your sleeve? Let me guess -- the IRS doesn't count? They have no authority? They don't know what they're talking about? They're liberals?
     
  15. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Likes:
    41
    Occupation:
    Guess
    Location:
    Las Vegaas
    There's actually a few tax people in Las Vegas that specializes in gambling taxes and most all their clientele is professional gamblers and that's what they call it. Since they do have a degree and are certified then perhaps that trumps Larry's expertise on the matter.
    History, media, art, books, television, radio, magazines etc all recognize professional gamblers as a profession. Again I'll take that to trump Larry's comments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2016
  16. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Likes:
    41
    Occupation:
    Guess
    Location:
    Las Vegaas
    He will ignore and then research it trying to find some BS argument that's nothing but noise.
    No matter what BS he comes up with I'll go with this ......." The Supreme Court ruled in Groetzinger that an individual could be in the trade or business of gambling (a professional gambler) if he pursued gambling:"

    WHO Axel????
    The Supreme Court
    The Supreme Court
    The Supreme Court
    The Supreme Court
     
  17. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    250
    there is no such thing as the "profession of canvass painters"....no one ever claimed that profession existed.

    Anyone with a brush and canvas can declare themselves a "pofessional canvass painter". and anyone with a bucket of Home Depot paint can declare themselves a professional house painter.

    anyone can declare themselves to be in those "professions"....child molestors, pious people, drug addicts, retired folks.
     
  18. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2016
    Likes:
    95
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Really?

    The issue is not how you or anyone else spends their time.

    No, my argument is that it is borderline ludicrous to call some a "consummate professional" if their sole/main vocation is playing slots.

    It is not enough to treat slot play like a business; it is not enough to keep accurate records.

    No, something more is needed before a man can correctly call himself a "consummate professional" at slot AP.

    Being a professional requires skill, training, experience: often it comes from schooling, then practical experience.

    It involves an ability that most people do not have.

    More importantly, a "consummate professional" by definition must be making very serious money, year in, year out.

    A "consummate professional" also has earned the (oft-grudging) respect of and is sometimes envied by the common folk.

    Go ahead, call yourself a "consummate professional" if that makes you feel good.

    Heck, add "BMF" to it: what the hell, it's all self-labeling, right?

    Just don't expect me to salute when you raise your crayon-drawn flag.
     
  19. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Likes:
    250
    this is too easy.

    that title is a governmental title handed out by uncle sam.
    Again, uncle sam does not take away your "professional gambler" status...if you rape your cousin, if you get busted for selling drugs, if you punch your technician girlfriend in the mouth....its all good....if you make money gambling full time...the govt REQUIRES that you still call yourself "professional gambler".
    WHY???
    strictly for the book keeping purpose of assigning you a reason to pay taxes.

    The govt sets no professional standards of conduct, monitors nothing on your continued education, offers no punishment for poor performance.

    nope

    purely a book keeping moniker. The could just as easily call them full time gamblers. Its just that some bureaucrat came up with the moniker.

    I would laugh at the comic strip of a girl telling her dad she is beinging home her new boyfriend....he is a professional. Dad is all happy, and at the dinner table he finds out that the man is a "professional gambler"....his tax form declares he is a "professional".
     
  20. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Likes:
    41
    Occupation:
    Guess
    Location:
    Las Vegaas
    [QU
    So then someone who's been doing something for years and they are considered the best wouldn't be considered a professional? No such thing as a professional poker player? No such thing as a professional glass blower? No such thing as a professional writer?

    By your definition and in your opinion you can claim it's not however your definition and opinion doesn't count. The IRS was actually against it because they wanted more taxmoney, however the Supreme Court felt it was a legitimate profession. let's look at how professional is defined.



    • Relating to or belonging to a profession.

      ‘young professional people’
      1. 1.1Worthy of or appropriate to a professional person; competent, skilful, or assured.
        ‘his professional expertise’

        ‘their music is both memorable and professional’
    • ***2Engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur.

      ‘a professional boxer’


    NOUN
    • 1A person engaged or qualified in a profession.

      ‘professionals such as lawyers and surveyors’
      1. 1.1A person engaged in a specified activity, especially a sport, as a main paid occupation rather than as a pastime.
        ‘his first season as a professional’

      2. 1.2A person competent or skilled in a particular activity.
        ‘she was a real professional on stage’
        -------------------------------------------------------
    I think there's a difference between a professional gambler and an advantage player.
    An advantage player can mean multiple different things as someone can be an advantage player once a year.
    A professional gambler IMO.
    1)They need to mathematically show that they have an advantage and apply the methods and strategies needed to obtain that advantage.
    2)They need to show a fair history of winning more than they lose (2 + years)
    3)They need to make enough from +EV gambling to support themselves.

    Other things that can help determine if in fact there's some merit to claiming your a professional gambler.
    A)Witnesses that can verify you can and do 1-3.
    B) The ability to teach someone the skill needed to become a successful gambler/AP themselves.
    C)The ability to actually preform your methods and skill with witnesses repeatedly.
    D)An agency such as Griffin and others that have considered you to be an professional gambler /advantage player.
    E) Various State gaming boards who have identified you as a professional gambler/AP.
    F) Casino's who have you documented as a professional gambler/Advantage Player, perhaps asking you not to return, sending you certified letters or in person officially trespassing you because you're an advantage player.
    G)Others seeking you out for advice on advantage play.
    H) Being offered work regarding your advantage play knowledge.
    I) Being mentioned and regarded by many others as a skilled advantage player.
    J) Providing work for others regarding advantage play
    k)Other professionals both in your field and other fields that can vouch for you as doing 1-3 and can verify many of the other things mentioned above.

    I would absolutely say there's definitely enough there that most people would logically determine that person was a PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER or ADVANTAGE PLAYER(whatever you want to call it)

    You're opinion is in the vast minority.
     

Share This Page