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Craps Of Dice and Balls ...

Discussion in 'Craps Forum' started by Harley, Jun 9, 2015.

  1. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Most states and country Gaming laws say that the dice must be balanced (everywhere except the Wild, Wild West of Nevada) with statutory clauses similar to the following, stating that the Dice must:
    However, we are finding too often that dice being used by Casinos, especially Indian Casinos and Nevada casinos are not balanced. The dice balancing calipers and the basic laws of gravity show that the dice are not balanced - what are the odds that the dice keep coming to the same exact side over and over and over as the gravity pulls the heavier weighted side towards the bottom:
    Recently the NFL concluded that the New England Patriots and Tom Brady were using underinflated footballs or footballs that were not in accordance with NFL guidelines.
    Suspended 25% of your season games is huge !!

    There was no study as to whether or not the under-inflation of the footballs, no matter how small affected the game - it didn't matter !!

    Likewise, it doesn't matter one iota whether or not or how much the imbalance of dice increases the House Advantage. It does matter that the dice are imbalanced pure and simple and that is the same issue the NFL was facing.

    The name of the game is football and they altered the specifications of the basic element of the game. Likewise with craps when you allow for the use of unbalanced or percentage dice in live casino play all too aften.

    Many naysayers would say why would casinos cheat - they already have a large enough built-in house advantage ... Why would arguably the best team in football - the New England Patriots who have won more Superbowl championships than any other team this century need to cheat to win ... Why would Lance Armstrong who was considered the best cyclist of his time and won 7 Tour de France races need to cheat to win. The answer is doesn't matter why, but the fact is they did !!

    From NFL's letter to Tom Brady:

    "With respect to your particular involvement, the report established that there is substantial and credible evidence to conclude you were at least generally aware of the actions of the Patriots' employees involved in the deflation of the footballs and that it was unlikely that their actions were done without your knowledge.

    Your actions as set forth in the report clearly constitute conduct detrimental to the integrity of and public confidence in the game of professional football. The integrity of the game is of paramount importance to everyone in our league, and requires unshakable commitment to fairness and compliance with the playing rules. Each player, no matter how accomplished and otherwise respected, has an obligation to comply with the rules and must be held accountable for his actions when those rules are violated and the public's confidence in the game is called into question."​
     
  2. $nakeEye$

    $nakeEye$ Active Member Founding Member

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    Harley -

    Pardon MY confusion -

    A few days ago YOU posted that YOU " overcame by 100 % of the unbalanced dice used by Indian casinos in Nevada " -

    " http://www.gamblingforums.com/threads/off-axis-toss.1719/ " -

    And NOW you are still crying wolf about the unbalanced dice -

    MY QUESTION to YOU is simply THIS -

    " IF - YOU - As YOU CLAIM - have overcame the " biased dice " problem with YOUN NEW " VOLATILE TOSS " -

    That YOU were admonished to " SLOW DOWN : -

    EXACTLY WHY do YOU keep harking about " unbalanced dice " -

    YOU - OVERCAME - THE BIAS !

    So YOU CLAIM !

    $...eE..$
     
  3. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Because it is better for everyone including myself to play with fair dice instead of starting at a disadvantage while tossing with unbalanced dice.

    Even though I was able to overcome the unbalanced dice to a degree, the other players at the table were not resulting in very short rolls and bank rolls were lost while waiting for the dice to get back to me.
     
    $nakeEye$ likes this.
  4. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    if someone charts a table and finds the dice to be biased, cant the general public take advantage of that bias?

    Doesnt biased dice present a 2 edged sword...that both that casino AND the players can take advantage of
     
  5. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    LarryS - yes and no ... Dice can be weighted 26 different ways ... The chances of you picking out the same dice from a normal bowl of 5 is only 5% or 1 in 20

    We are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different sides weighted - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! ... Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!

    The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
     
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  6. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    I have seen shooters request same dice.
     
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  7. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Most casinos allow "same dice" calls, but more and more are not -- why wouldn't they allow you to use the same "lucky" dice if all dice are the same ?!

    ... Then again trying to get same dice if there are 4 shooters before you shoot again makes it difficult
     
  8. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Gamblers are under the mistaken impression that the casino has to offer them a fair game. Only in where there is State Law and a gambling commission that actively regulates gaming, the casinos will comply exactly to those regulations, however this still may not ensure the games are fair, and where the regulations are silent the casinos can do as they please. In Nevada the laws are silent about the balance of the dice, only stating that the dice have to be the same dimensions on all faces and square.

    Casino regulators only inspect those things they can regulate as per law, things outside of the law they will not regulate. If the dice are not balanced, this is then something that is NOT regulated by the State of Nevada and they will not have any interest to pursue any claims of unbalanced dice.

    We know as a fact that unbalanced dice can radically decrease the SRR (Sevens to Rolls Ratio) that with normal balance dice come in at 6.1 but with unbalanced dice can come in as low as 4.1. This higher frequency of the Sevens creates the conditions we call 'cold dice' but is also not the Don'ts players delight as the seven is far more frequent in the coming out rolls as well.
    Dice can be imbalanced in other ways, such as to have far more hits in the Craps rolls (2,3,4,10,11,12) that are often non-paying rolls. Such 'crappy dice' as we call them have an SRR of 5.9 but the way out of the norm frequency of hitting the craps rolls that are often non-paying rolls creates a high house edge that is suspected up in to the 12% range.

    I personally have in my possession a pair of dice from an Indian Casino, that is not regulated by any state agency nor are there any state laws that regulate the gaming equipment, and these dice are so highly unbalanced as to have an extraordinary high Craps rolls frequency. Furthermore, testing these dice with a dice balance device showed that even with identical dice with the same serial number that one die would be bias to the 6 on top and another bias to the 1 on top.

    The mindset of the casinos is that it is the players who need to evaluate the games before they play them and CHOOSE if they play them or not. If the player is stupid enough to play a crooked game, and even if by law they can display and operate a game like that, the casino sees it as the players own damn fault for playing the game and not evaluating the game prior to play.

    One would think that the built in house edge in all the casino games would be adequate for enough profit for any casino, but the reality is that it is not so by a long shot. It is no secret that the recession (2009) was very hard on the casinos and they took on a lot of pricy debt to just stay in operations. Today the problems are even worse: State Taxes are higher, Obamacare hikes up the medical insurance rates, and the student loans greatly sap the disposable income of the next generation of players. What Las Vegas is experiencing is that the young adults that come like to eat, look and party but do relatively little gambling. The low pay jobs and the high college debts most young adults have these days simply improvises them, and no casino can exist where poverty is rampant.

    Craps is not the only game that has been degraded. 6:5 blackjack is all over The Strip and fairly accepted now days. Video Poker pay-tables degraded to a now common 98.5% return rate, roulette is seeing a degraded pay for direct number hits, bonus bets and side bets are being degraded and the slot return rate is at a poor 89%.

    Wake up Craps players! Stop diluting yourself by thinking that Craps is undegraded by the casinos. These dice with the inset pips that are bias is now the norm. Gone are the fair printed face dice and replaced with these bias dice. No Dice Control or Influence technique is going to work with them, and no betting strategy with bias dice will work. Even if you think you can use the bias dice to your advantage, you are wrong. Bias dice push the house edge to high for any advantage play at all. All you can hope for with your tossing techniques and betting methods is to reduce your losses.
     
    Harley likes this.
  9. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    very well reasoned analysis of the state of gambling today.
    I cant argue with any of it.

    The one thing I really agree with is the nonsene comment people make"why would the casno need to cheat, they can make enough money just from the house advantage."

    Yeah right. No one EVER "makes enough money".

    People say that to defend the absolute fairness of online casino games. The online casinos "make enough money without cheating so they dont need to cheat".

    very naive way to view the world.
     
    Harley likes this.
  10. DeMango

    DeMango Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Please let me know where these dice that produce a SRR of 4 are found. I will lay the appropriate number and in short order own that casino! Gotta love those people that always bring up the come out roll as if that is the only way to play the don'ts!ll
     
  11. superrick

    superrick Active Member Founding Member

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    Yes, but you have to know how to take advantage of what you are seeing. Most players will never even track a table to see if there is anything out of the ordinary!


    I'm not about to tell you or anybody else how to take advantage of what you are seeing. I do not teach how to play craps, nor do I have a school that wants to take your money for teaching how to throw the dice. Most players never play enough to see anything that is going on, on the tables.


    The average craps player may play craps three time a year, they are only on the tables until they run out of money! Even our guys that works in the gaming industry don't play enough to make rational decisions on the dice. They are just trying to defend gaming. I don't blame them, I would want to keep my job too!


    There are dealers that recognize that something isn't right when it comes to what they are seeing on the tables. There are plenty of local players that have stopped playing craps because they can no longer win at a game that they loved to play. They kept playing the same old way that they learned many years ago and it cost them dearly.


    There are always going to be that one lucky roller that will still get on a roll every once in a while. You have to remember with bad dice it only changes what you are going to see by a few %. You are not going to see nothing but 7 outs, that only happens in the movies.


    If you're only at the craps table for a half hour anything can happen and it will look like there is nothing wrong, but if you tracked the table you could see that something is not right where you are playing. Now it could be variance there is no doubt about it. But when you keep seeing the same thing over and over again, your variance goes away! When I was first told that there could be bad dice on the table, I did the same thing as everybody else,..I laughed at what was being told to me and asked how come I could beat the tables I was playing on. The answer came back that I was different then most players that as soon as I saw something I didn't like I changed the set I was using and where I was throwing my dice.


    I then started looking at the strange happens on the tables, by looking at the rolls I tracked of the so-called random rollers. I did not go by what I was doing on the tables. That got my attention and I still go by what they are doing, not what I'm rolling!


    We all should know that most business owners try to get their labor as cheap as possible. This has led to manufacturers going off-shore. Their quality control is no where like it used to be. They don't care they are in business to sell as many dice as they can!


    The casinos and their pencil pushers in a ever increasing pressure to make money have going to buying dice as cheaply as possible.


    The old thing that most posters will write is if there was bad dice on the table I would be making a killing playing the don't. But all of those 7's that you see on the come out rolls are killing them too!


    Track the tables you play on if you play all of the time, but even with that said you are just wasting your time if you only play three times a year!


    It takes time to develop any reasonable results on what you are doing, playing for a half hour three time a year just doesn't get it!
     
    Harley likes this.
  12. fish

    fish Member

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    Didn't your read the previous post from DeMango the Great.
     
  13. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    fish, you irish finger, Mad Professor still don't get it :rolleyes: .... not our place to tell you how to play

    besides DeMango did not disclose his strategy, but I guarantee you that we can show it will not work for millions unless he buys in for millions because here is the key - how does DeMango know what the appropriate number to Lay is
     
    fish likes this.
  14. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    To prevent customers like DeMango from taking advantage of a certain bias in dice, Casinos are changing the bias from one shift to the next. Even after a hot roll, the dice may be changed immediately to a different bias.

    Conversely, I was at one of DeMango's favorite sweat joints - Sam's Town in Las Vegas when I noticed the 5 was the "appropriate number to Lay" .... after the table had been open only 2 hours, they had a new stick of dice inserted to stop my exploitation of Laying the 5 on every roll

    Also, we are finding more Casinos using a stick of dice that has several different loads - that not all dice in the same stick are equal. How do you know which 2 dice loads you have just picked up to roll with gives you which combination of numbers ?!! ... Is this the reason you just rolled 4 hardways on your first toss but you cannot even roll a hardway on your 2nd toss because you're using 2 different dice with different probabilities !!

    The 2 certain dice that you're using on your 1st toss may produce a 25 roll. However, the 2 dice you picked out the 2nd time may be unbalanced differently and assist in a PSO or much shorter roll with your same set on the same table. It's harder to maintain consistency if you are not using the same equipment.
     
  15. appistappis

    appistappis Member

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    there is something unbalanced here and its not the dice.
     
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  16. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    appistappis - you have been around dice awhile - have you ever used a dice balancing caliper ?

    One thing I do like about most of the NY casinos is that they hire NY police departments to do background checks on casino equipment vendors
     
  17. appistappis

    appistappis Member

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    yes I have and I'm not in new York.
     
  18. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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  19. appistappis

    appistappis Member

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    I honestly believe that you guys should check your toothpaste for explosives. You are looking for things that just aren't there. Are there different dice on craps tables, yes. Are there unbalanced and unmatched dice, yes. Are there people checking these dice with calipers etc who don't have a clue what they are doing or what to look for, yes.

    Do casino's purposely put them in play, know which ones are good and/or bad, knowingly take advantage over players using them....NO.
    Can a player come up with a shot that will take advantage of bad dice to give himself an advantage..ABSOLUTELY NOT and to suggest so really shows the fringe element that the whole dice conspiracy people have become.
     
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  20. Harley

    Harley Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    appistappis - we may be using the same toothpaste because we really agree on the most important issues:

    1. appistappis - "Are there different dice on craps tables, yes."

    Harley: we agree 100%

    2. appistappis - "Are there unbalanced and unmatched dice, yes."

    Harley: we agree 100%

    3. appistappis - "Are there people checking these dice with calipers etc who don't have a clue what they are doing or what to look for, yes."

    Harley: we agree 100%

    4. appistappis - "Do casino's purposely put them in play, know which ones are good and/or bad, knowingly take advantage over players using them....NO."

    Harley: we will have to agree to disagree on this moot point. Some casinos do, most casinos just buy cheap dice ... but you know what - it really doesn't matter if the unbalanced dice are put into the game on purpose or not ... fact remains that the more unbalanced dice are more prevalent on Fight Nights and other "High Roller" promotional events so you make your own conclusion.

    I think Ahigh - a double-degreed genius IMO with several patents and a high level casino industry executive that has been quoted in several casino industry articles sums it up best when he told me (and I believe he posted on Wizard's) that the casinos do know which dice serial numbers give them the best hold or profit margin. The casinos keep extensive level reports by shift. This was confirmed when another casino executive explained these profit margin reports to me. .... so IMO, the casinos know unless they are just taking some dice salesman's sales pitch that says "These nearly perfect square dice will give you a better hold"

    .... but's its ok that you don't agree with me because it really doesn't matter

    5. appistappis - "Can a player come up with a shot that will take advantage of bad dice to give himself an advantage..ABSOLUTELY NOT ..."

    Harley: we agree 95% and I agree 100% with both of Mark V's statement above:
    .... so we agree basically on 4 out of 5 issues and the other issue is a moot point being pushed by Heavy as a distraction to the whole issue

    .... fact remains that we collectively now have 1000s of pieces of live casino evidence and over 75% of our suspected evidence tested proves that too many dice are unbalanced despite most state laws saying they should be balanced.
     
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