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Craps Pals Patrick and Heavy AND "BEATING" THE CASINO

Discussion in 'Craps Forum' started by LarryS, May 11, 2015.

  1. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    John Patrick and Heavy are associates. They have hosted a seminar together, and Heavy contributes the Patricks board.
    As friendly as they might be, after 60 years of gambling....Patrick claims to have "no opinion " on DI. You would think that with their friendly relationship, that Patrick could muster up something positive to say about DI. But in his thousands and thousands of hours at the craps tables, and with his ability to pick the brain of Heavy due to their association....he sees nothing there to comment positively on.

    John Patrick claims you can consistently beat a casino with money management and following trends
    Heavy feels you can beat the casino by using DI

    The thing is, if i walk up to any gaming table in any casino, and announce to the pit boss

    I am going to be using money management
    and or
    I am going to be following trends
    and or
    I will be using DI at this craps table
    or
    I will be card counting today

    Only one of the above will get you removed from the casino.

    As long as you dont slow down the flow of the game, you can do all the above.

    Heck, casinos will even chart the table for you at roulette and bac so that you can spot trends more easily.

    I TEND TO BELIEVE THE CASINOS.....when they says money management, trend spotting, and DI doesnt bother us.
    And I believe the casino when they claim that card counting is bad for their bottom line and therefore outlaw it without exception

    hEAVY AND PATRICK are similar, in that they both cant claim that they make a living solely from their gambling theories. Heavy has had his fallback job. Patrick has made money from selling books, videos, tv shows, pay-per views, seminars.

    But one thing that is simple math.....and that is
    As one has a consistent way of winning a casino game.....then it means that their bankroll expands over time. As their bankroll expands, they can wager more and win more exerting the same time and effort. And the bankroll expands even more....allowing even bigger bets and bigger wins. After all once you established you can consistently win at craps betting red chips.....if your bankroll gets big enough..why not make 5x that each session by betting green chips...and then on to black chips.

    IF THAT HAPPEND FOR REAL....Heavy would be on his own sipping pina coladas in suite in the Carribean.
    Patrick woulnt be stuck in Lutz Fla, and would have at least the funds to get to vegas a few times a year instead of gambling in illegal underground casinos.

    But the answer is in the lifestyle. Is the lifestyle of people who have a "system" supported by a lifetyle of a successful person...solely by livbng off the gains of "the system"....or is the lifestyle average, with income coming in from other sources like other jobs, seminar fees, inheritance
     
    Harley likes this.
  2. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    Jobs, Seminars, & Inheritance Money!!!! Fleecing the Unsuspecting Public with the "On Axis" Bulls**t Is Normally the" Soup of The Day". Chicken Noodle Soup Anyone? How about a Nice, Hot Bowl Of Chili?
     
  3. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    I sometimes get calls from boiler room operations trying to sell me penny stocks. And my question always is...why am i the lucky one to get this inside info that you put out. Why arent you getting a second mortgage on your home and diving into this wonderful investment

    the same thing about DI. Why am I the lucky one to be able to get this valuable info. The more people that are successful at this...the more chance that the casinos will ban dice setting. Why try to kill the golden goose?

    Why not just quietly keep the golden goose for yourself and harvest the golden eggs by quietly following your own methods and skills.....and racking in the money, moving from casino to casino. Avoiding bringing attention to your "methods"

    Could it be that there is much more money in seminars than in what can be won(or lost) at the tables?

    I do it to help the gambling community is a disingenuous reply
     
    Mark V likes this.
  4. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    Exactly! I've stated all along that there WILL be Individuals that get on Good rolls just about EVERY time they pick up the Dice. However, It WON'T be because of Dice Influencing. Those RARE Individuals are just "Blessed", "Lucky" like that. Now, their dice Could be Closely cropped together landings, or spread all over the Friggin Table. Same thing with people that Practice DI'ng with success! Sure, their toss is Controlled, but NOT the End Results. Just "Pretty" Looking tosses that SEEM Influenced!!! Here's the Rub...... Some people will toss the dice XYZ(Hopefully a long enough sample) Number of Times & will Skew Probabilities & AUTOMATICALLY contribute it to Skill. Confirmation Bias!! Could it be that they just have a "Special" Knack for skewing Probability? It DOES Happen!!! There are people with special Gifts for having success at Different crafts. Look at Patricia Demuro(Lady that tossed the 154 Roll). Heard that she had Several additional Rolls in the 40's & 50's. Now, if she happened to be a Dice Influencer, everyone would say she influenced the dice. Just a Lucky person that does good with Tossing dice. "Toss" Influencing CAN be Taught to anyone with Decent Hand/eye Coordination. Obtaining Favorable results Can NOT be Taught because of a "Pretty" Looking Toss. The Bottom line is either your gonna Be Lucky with tossing the Dice or you aren't. Plain & simple. Hitting a Target with accuracy, Having Perfect Rotational control Over the Dice Does NOT Guarantee success. It's all Smoke & Mirrors, & when the "Newbies" see those Beautiful Mid-Air Tosses....... is when all the "Oohs, & "Ah's come into existence. Somehow equating the "Beauty" of a Mid-Air Toss with success. There are a few that have success with dice Influencing, & it'll always be that way. However, THAT success can be more attributed to God-Given Luck, More so than talent. Talent alone won't cut the mustard. You MUST be Lucky, Too!!!! I can tell you POSITIVELY That there's not Much influence going on with Dice Tosses. I've Conducted My own experiments (On My Home Table) from 4 ft away from the Back wall. What I've come to find isn't startling. It's what I KNEW all along. I certainly won't Knock anyone that has a strong Belief in dice Influencing. I mean..... Really, I love seeing the Dice Fly Beautifully Too. It's what keeps me involved with the Craft. However, if some of the Practictioners of Dice Influencing would just take the time to Rent or Practice on a Real table from ONLY 4ft away from the Backwall........ It'd be a REAL Eye Opener, & it'd CERTAINLY factor in to the way that they bet the Game. Dice Influencing..... No!!!! Toss Influencing..... YES!!!!!
     
  5. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    People have equated DI with a pitchers pitching a no hitter. Poor analogy. A pitcher needs a second party(a hitter) to be off just a fraction of an inch when making contact with a ball so that it gets hit to a fielder. Below average pitchers have thrown no-hitters. Anyone remember Jonathan Sanchez with the Giants throwing a perfect game 4 years ago? A year later he couldnt keep a job.

    Its amazing after 60 years at the tables, John Patrick will tout Gwen, an astrologer on his site and ask that his followers give her a chance....but yet still refuses to back Heavy and his DI methods.

    There are so many variables when practicing DI, where just a fraction of a millimeter can change an outcome. You can build a table at home to regular size of a casino table.....and practice for hundreds of hours to get your throw to be what you want.
    Then you show up at the casino, and the table isnt exactly the same length as yours, the pineapple protrusions are different in size and spacing, the bounce in the felt is totally different, the height of the rail off the floor is different, the dice may be a slightly different weight.The thickness of the carpet your stand on is slightly different that your carpet at home. All factors that can throw the toss off by just a fraction of a millimeter. Just enough to change the outcome that you expected from your home table.

    I am often told that in order to be successful with DI, you need to practice hundreds of hours. Before money is taken from students, are they told this. How many would shell out the money is they knew ahead of time they needed to spend all that time before they had a chance to rake in the profits.

    I have been told that the people who are going to be successful at DI should have a table at home to practice on. Hmmmmm,,,is this told to the students BEFORE they pay? I know buyer beware....and I cant argue with that.

    DI is not like throwing a bowing ball where you can be off by an inch and still get a strike. Throwing dice of varying weight, down a table of varying length, at a table of varying height, against pineapple protrusions of varying placement size and shape, ona felt of varying spring...thrown by an imperfect human being. Good luck. No wonder EVEN Patrick wont even get invlved.
     
  6. MisterAK

    MisterAK Member

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    MisterAK thinks LarryS does not know a lot about bowling. An inch can be the difference in a strike and a 4-10 split.
     
  7. superrick

    superrick Active Member Founding Member

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    If it wasn't for the fact that some have made money off of trying to teach someone to become a so-called DI there would be no such thing.

    Players won money betting on anybody that got lucky before they coined the words Dice Controller.


    After they coined Dice Controllers the casinos started doing all kinds of stupid things to put a stop to something that can't even be proving. Then these DI schools did what any cult does and that is to separate their followers from everybody else! That is the main reason they came up with you can't bet on a random roller.



    Common sense would tell you that nothing change, before they came up with Dice Control, there were winners then and the same thing still happens! Who holds the world record for the longest roll, that's right a random roller!
     

  8. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    So AK you never saw a ball miss by an inch and the strike still occured? I have seen some crazy hits where the pin action made up for a less perfect hit. Your comment is silly. Yes there are splits due to an inch miss. And there are strikes that occur despite an inch miss. Very silly post. But thats ok...its the best you can do....and I recognize that. No big deal. You did your best.
     
  9. Tony Baloney

    Tony Baloney Member Lineage to Founders

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    Guys, guys... I been reading for years from (broke) experts about how the following is all just plain voodoo bullshit: hot tables, hot dice, hot shooters, cold shooters, cold women, hot wheels, hot Big Wheel, Hot shoes, cold shoes, Trend is my friend, this hand that ball, that dice have absolutely nuthin to do with the previous event because they are all separate events and go read Gamblers Fallacy, you idiot. Right, so never mind all that. Have I got a deal for you guys. Now look here...

    The picture below is of my very good friend who happens to be a Nigerian Prince. He has a dilemma. He has over US$50Billion drug money, all in unmarked C-notes and wants to get it out of Nigeria. It is only by bribing certain officials that he will be able to send the cash out. The three main Nigerian government ministers are demanding $3B as their fee for allowing the large container of cash free passage.

    As I am unable to raise that sort of cash on a moment's notice, I thought of you guys here. I know that you can pull strings in the Tea Party and you probably know some Zionist billionaires who to them, $3B is petty cash. The point is, as soon as your $3B gets to my bank account, I can then take the necessary steps to see those three crooks get paid and then the rather large box of cash will be then on it's way to Uncle America.

    Yep, you get to look after the whole lot of the $50B, but for your troubles and small investment, you will be able to keep $15B... in cash. I will be over to collect the remaining $35B real soon. So there you have it, a very nice quick, sweet deal... and all tax free.

    See my good pal there below, he has an honest face, hey... And he has lots of freckles. LOL. He once had a brother but that lion there ate him. Too bad, you can't help bad luck. I do hope you are the lucky one who is going to reap a tremendous windfall for your comparatively paltry investment. Hurry now, be quick. Oh and my Nigerian pal, his name is Prince Obongo Obamalumumba III. Your $3B bet looks like one hellova wager... a 500/1 sure thing... or is it 5000/1? My math is not too flash.

    king13.jpg
     
    fish likes this.
  10. Tony Baloney

    Tony Baloney Member Lineage to Founders

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    Dudes, here's all that cash...

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    Okay, I'm All in on This One. PLEASE Don't Tell anyone Else about This. Let's Keep it a Secret. Give Me Your Bank account Number & I'll Wire The Cash To Your Account In the Morning. Better Still, Just Give Me a Call in the Morning & We'll Make The Necessary Arrangements. I can Be Reached at: 1-800-Got Cash! Operators are standing By ANXIOUSLY awaiting YOUR Call!!
     
    fish likes this.
  12. DeMango

    DeMango Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Picture of money comes from a Mexican drug lord bust.
     
  13. Tony Baloney

    Tony Baloney Member Lineage to Founders

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    DeMango just rained on my parade
     
  14. DeMango

    DeMango Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Sorry!
     

  15. Tony Baloney

    Tony Baloney Member Lineage to Founders

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    You are not. Now that you are here, where's my $3B?
     
  16. superrick

    superrick Active Member Founding Member

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    Money will be made this weekend here in Vegas when Heavy and crew is in town. But the real money will not be made on the tables and if you looked at what really happens on the tables they are playing on it's just luck if they do manage to pull off a win. It called the luck of the average, just like any other table in Vegas someone might get lucky and have a good roll.


    Now here is the truth about what happens at these group gatherings someone gets lucky in their group and they all make a big deal out of it, when at the same time on the table right behind them a random rollers just had a fifty roll, but it wasn't written up any place. No the so-called random rollers don't have a craps board where they can brag about their exploits.


    But the DI schools provide their students with a board that they can brag every time they have a good roll. While that good roll may only come around once a year, it's out there for the rest of their members to read about. Good rolls happen every day in casinos around the world and they are not by the so-called DI's. Hell did Heavy say that only 3% of his students makes it,... trying to become a so-called DI?


    Now the very simple thing for all of these sock puppets to do is produce those slow motion videos that shows what they say can be done, instead of attacking the messenger, that is showing the real truth about what the dice do when they hit the tables.


    I always ask anybody that is a so-called DI, if they know any of those shooters in those videos and do not put out their handles because some of these videos are just laughable!


    So Mr AK47 and snakeeyes where is your videos in that bunch that I keep posting? Oh come to think about it where is one from Heavy and crew?

    While I always say it's a smart thing to take a class, if they teach good betting skill and they do not allow fiction on their DI boards, this whole thing about their dice staying on axis is just BS, like all of the fiction on some of these DI boards!
     
  17. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    Around 15 years ago John Patrick and Heavy did a seminar together in an Atlantic City hotel casino. Patrick did his voodoo stuff about beating the casino with money management, and following trends....and heavy did some class along with an offsite training class at a place that had a craps table. Up until then when Patrick was asked about his opinion on DI....he would bow out and say he had no opinion since he didnt know enough about it.
    After the seminar he still gives the same answer. He had the ability to listen to Heavy. He had the opportunity to sit in on the heavy seminar....I bet that since Heavy gets free exposure on the Patrick Site, he would gladly give Patrick some private one on one training. After all....he was already there. They are Pals hooking up to do a seminar. And a person who had even a glimmer of faith that DI works would have taken the opportunity to immerse themselves in a the new knowledge that can make them more money over time.Over the next 15 years.

    I dont feel sorry for people who take the seminars on DI. Buyer beware. If you think it through using common sense you can come to an answer , if your research the web you can come to an answer. If after thinking it through, and doing due diligence you still want to part with money...well thats fine.People buy into dreams all the time. Whether its a recommended hot stock, or a lottery ticket, or sure fire real estate or DI seminars. The people who pay get what they want....a sense of hope, a feeling that they have control over their life financially if they can just refine their "skills". And when they dont get the financial return that they dreamed of, they just realize that they obviously didnt put in enough time.....it was their fault. Its not a flaw in the whole concept of DI....its a flaw in their preparation. The average person who takes the seminars cannot get a full length table into their home and most cannot devote the hundreds of hours at home on that table......and that is the "out". That is the reason why they cant get the good results....its never that the foundation of DI is shaky
     
  18. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    LISTEN..... Having a Table in the Home Does Absolutely NOTHING, but Help you To Develop a "Pretty" Looking Toss. I've had a Table in my Home(Two Different Bounce Characteristics), For Over 6 Years, & the ONLY thing I can do Consistently is Spin, or Float the dice in Unison & Keep them Closely Cropped Together At Landing. It's NOT about Having a Table at Home. It's about WHAT you do(THe Experiments That You can Conduct) with Your Table. If you have No control, or Influence from 4 ft From the Back Wall, How the Hell can you have influence From 8-12 Ft away from the Back Wall? It's all Confirmation Bias. Smoke & Mirrors. You make a Toss wherein your Dice Travel Perfectly, & you avoid the Seven Out. The Subliminal says: Influence is there. Toss the same shot & Get a Seven Out. Subliminal says: It was just Bad Luck. Heh..... We ALL TRY to influence the dice. Certainly NOTHING wrong with trying. I'd rather Toss a Pretty looking Shot, other than an "Ugly Duckling". However, It all comes Down to One Thing, Whether You're Tossing the Dice With Precision, or Flinging them straight out of Your ass!!! ARE YOU WINNING? Are You Hitting the Numbers that You have your Money Wagered On? If the Answer is Yes....... Carry On!!! If Not, Don't Despair, Because There's PLENTY of Others that are in the Same Boat as You!!!! Now, the Initial Table Contact is a Influence Thwarting Bitch. HOWEVER, I have Conducted Experiments Wherein I took a Pyramid Strip & Turned it Over(To the Completely Smooth Portion) & put it Completely Across My Existing Pyramid Wall on my Table. Now, Hitting 2 inches Before The Flat Wall, There's a LOT of Influence going on. I could Actually influence the Results VERY well under THOSE Conditions. So, With that being said, if One Could SOMEHOW hit the PYRAMID Wall wherein the Dice Hit "Flat"(Very Hard to Do), there would Be SOME influence Going On. All of these So-called DI's Practice Different Landing Zones, Dice Sets, etc, But They don't take the Time to "Break Down" What actually Happens with The End Results of The Toss. If there was NO Back Wall at All, The Initial Table Contact, & End over End Tumbling Would Destroy The Influence. I've Even experimented with The "Blanket Roll", & NOT Hitting the Pyramids At All. THAT'S a "No Go". In order to Exhibit Influence, You have To SOMEHOW Convert the Pyramided Back Wall(Casinos won't allow it. LOL) into a Flat Object, Toss the Dice on "Mid-Air" Axis, hit 2-3 Inches in front of the Back Wall, & the Dice will Stop Nicely, With very Little Tumbling. THAT is The ONLY way that there'd be Much influence Going On. I'm just waiting For Someone to Post a Video Tossing from 3-4 Feet away from the Back Wall, instead of the Normal 8-12 ft Away. If this Type of Video was Ever Posted..... A Vast Majority Of the Schools would Lose their Students, & all the Aspiring DI's would Find another Craft To Pursue!!!! You can't just be Concerned with Posting Videos of the dice NOT staying "On Axis". Any intelligent Person Knows it aint So!!! Have a Video of an EXPERT Tosser Toss from just 4 feet away from the Back Wall, & Have all the Students Paying these Outrageous Seminar Fees View the Video. My Prediction: No more Dice Influencing Seminars!!!!
     
  19. Tony Baloney

    Tony Baloney Member Lineage to Founders

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    Will Frankie be there this weekend?
     
  20. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    To my understanding, It's a Heavy, & Dice Coach Deal. Frank is a GREAT story Teller, & I realize that a LOT of people dislike The Breaking Vegas Deal, & the Paranoia that it INITIALLY caused with The Casinos Taking Counter Measures. However, Frank has Enough Common sense To realize That Continuously Taking the Dice Is A Date with death. A lot of these so-Called DI's will toss a Monster, Or Profitable Hand, & Continue to Toss Until Their "Nuts" Fall off. I call it "Chasing". Trying to Catch Lightning in a Bottle Again!!! As for Myself..... Wouldn't give a Shit If I spent Three days in a Casino, & Only Tossed the Dice Twice!!! I just want to win the Money. I don't want to Test My Toss, Try different Landing Spots, different Trajectories, Ec. Get enough of that Endless Bulls**t at Home!!! Toss, Collect, & Exit. Excuse Me Sir: Which way is The Cashier's Cage?
     

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