Casino Raising a Family on Table Games

I pose this question. Is there anyone that has raised a family on profits from casino table games .
When I say "raise a family" it means everything that you would do financially if you had a good paying job. Home, food, shelter, vacations, retirement plan, child college fund, clothing, entertainment, 2 cars.wife has her jewelery, you have your mancave...etc.

I know people who card count can win at BJ. I am not talking about them since casinos dont allow that.
And I know tournament and private poker has its share of millionaires. And just a look at Billy Walters shows that sports gambling can be lucrative.

But at other table games..are there people who can live a good life and provide for a family. I am not talking about eeking out a living and living in your car, or at friends houses.

I submit that if someone wins consistently using whatever method they have adopted.....then they can live a luxurious life simply by increasing their bets.

If someone has a method where they say they consistently win at craps, and they bet red chips,...well for the same time and effort, ...they can make 5 times that amount by betting green chips, and 20x that amount by betting black chips. The dice dont land differently when you bet black chips.

This is where i see a disconnect. There are plenty of people out there who claim to have a method that wins consistently. Yet they keep their day job, or they live an austere life.

Plese dont tell me people go out of their way to win less so that casinos dont notice.
No big deal.....you can spread the pain to multiple local casinos, and daddy can even go on business trips out of state......and even out of country.

So if there are people who play craps and roulette for a living.....and they win consistently....then they have indeed found the goose that lays the golden eggs...and over time,....they can consistently increase their individual bets as they keep winning and their bankroll increases. Snowballing thier profits over time.
They must be very very very well off. Just like Billy Walters(owner of golf courses, homes, jets)

 

Winning consistently doesn't mean winning is easy. AP-ing is a lot like shoplifting, because the casino looks at AP's like they're crooks. They don't like what AP's do, and the longer you do it, the more heat you draw. It takes it's toll on the AP psychologically. Also, being an AP is very boring. Face it, these are childish kids games that casinos offer. Most people need more stimulation in their professional lives then waiting to place the next bet. The people who wonder why AP's aren't wealthy beyond belief are people who have no idea what the AP life is like.

 

AP's are not the only gamblers out there. There are sports bettors and poker players who dont call themselves APs.
I am not talking about the person who gets a free room and 3 free meals worth 200 dollars, and loses 150 at the tables and proclaims that he is 50 dollars ahead.

I am talking about Dice influencers who claim and teach a method.
I am talking about others like John Patrick followers who claim consistent wins ( or other authors followers)
I am talking about people who have their own system and claim they consistently win

Consistent winning means that they win more than they lose. And if they bet more...they will win more.

OK so life is boring for some who gamble....even more reason to maximize their time, and maximize their profit when they do go through the torturous execution of their gameplan.

there is a line from a Loudon Wainwright III song....."everyones got a system, but no one seems to win
even Bob Geldof looks alarmingly thin"

funny line......but might be over the heads of most due to the dated events it references

but it does summarize my initial post in a nutshell

 

How do you know they're not? For the reasons I already posted, it's not as easy as you think. Most people assume that having a winning system is 90% of the equation. Wrong. 90% of the equation is figuring out how to consistently take the money from the casino or sportsbook. They're not standing at the door with a smile and a basket full of money, as many seem to assume. A winning system is not an ATM that never stops giving.

 

Thats why I asked the question. Outside of poker and sports betting I never heard of someone who made big money on craps or roulette.
I am asking if those people exist

I mean I see Heavy over the last 20 years keeping his day job as he teaches others how to DI
I see John Patrick stuck in Lutz Fla, without funds to take a journey to vegas over the last 7 years or so. He calls the town he lives in "hades" and "a rat hole".....yet he doesnt take trips to Vegas which he years for by his own words. After years of tv shows, selling merchandise, personal seminars and following his own methods...he is far from Billy Walters, flying around where and when he wants. He is stuck in a "rat hole" wherein his words there is no way out......obviously not even temporarily.

So where are the craps and roulette players owning multiple homes, paying for their childrens education, having a IRA for the future.

I am not saying they are not out there. All I am doing is asking if anyone knows of them.

I am not smart enough to categorically say there are zero craps players living the good life off their consistent winnings. I just pose the question

I am looking for people who drive to a casino, and the leave the casino with more net money in their bank account. Meaning that gas and wear and tear on the car is taken into account, meal cost over what you would normally spend are taken into account, parking, tolls.......leading to a net net real increase in the dollars in your bank account that you can useto pay bills, and save for future vacations and retirement.

I have a question about AP players because I really dont know.....If they got comps from the bellagio, a week stay and all meals worth 1200.
And if they lose 500. Do they consider themselves "ahead"???? Or do they count just what i explained above.....net net increase in their bank about upon return home.

 

Every AP I know does it on a yearly basis. They know exactly where they are for the year, and usually the last five years. It has to be done that way because of the variance. Yes, there are some that make a lot of money and live well. However, you'll never find
them posting on a gambling forum.

In the States, they won't own multiple homes because of the tax problem. In fact, the house is usually in the wife's name. All AP's say they pay taxes, but most of them claim very little of what they really make.

 

So you are saying the real successful gamblers are not the folks like Frank S and JOhn Patrick, and Heavy and all the well known people who write books, give seminars and appear on message boards? The real successes are quiet about it. I tend to agree that if I was making money consistently in gambling, I would not be blowing my own horn or teaching others in a public manner.

Heck we all can have lucky days. Just because I won over 2k on a 50 dollar show bet once...doesnt mean I am successful at horse racing. To be successful I need to be consistent. And if I was consistent at horse racing, my lifestyle would be quite different. Like I said...my bankroll would snowball and in turn my bets would increase.....thereby making my bankroll snowball even larger. etc etc. But I am admittedly a failure at everything except sports betting.

To me the proof is in the lifestyle.

 

So my question remains. Alot of APs I see on boards also have day jobs.So they would need to have seperate bank accounts to see what the net increase or decrease would be.
To me the comps people get are of little value if you are treating gambling like a business. For example if your boss sends you to Kansas on a business trip and pays for your room and food....the room has zero financial value to you because you are still paying rent at home on your apt. And if you ate at home and spent 12 dollars a day on food(2 meals at home and fastfood for lunch)...then that is the net savings for room and board.
Same at casinos. If you get a 500 dollar room for a day and 100 dollar steak dinner,....you are really saving 12 dollars that day based on your normal daily expenses. At the end of the year that 600 dollars appears nowhere in your bank account. If you are treating this as a vacation...then fine..there is value in the comps. But treating it as a business....all the non cash comps are just bells and whistles.

Even travel expense should be subratacted from wins. John Patrick talks about driving 220 miles round trip to atlantic city and back 5 days a week for 20 years. He says he never counts travel expenses. Yet when you calculate it out....thats 1 million miles. Where did that money come from for new cars, tires, oil changes, gas, tune ups, brakes etc? It comes out of profits at the tables....and increases net losses. Plus there was 1 dollar in tolls each way as well. that is 10k over 20 years. Someone paid for that. Its real money. Even the tiniest expenses add up over time. And the tiniest expenses represent money you will never spend or have for retirement.

So how do AP's really calculate their net wins. Do they treat it like a business and keep meticulous records of expenses and profits. Or is it like when i go with buddies for fun, and the dude loses 100 at the tables but gets a free meal.....and I ask on the way home....HOW DID YOU DO......
and the answer as usual........"i just about broke even".

Keep breaking even like that every day and you will be in the poor house.

I am not saying APs cant win or dont win. I dont know for sure so cant make a blanket statement. I was just asking about the record keeping. How accurate is it. Is there honesty in recording real profits..or are alot of people like john patrick who just declare..."i dont count this or that expense"

 

the silence gves me my answer....just as I suspected.

 

Do you really think top AP's are going to come here and describe what they do day in and day out? Hell no they aren't!!

 

JBS....thats a bogus comment.
I never asked for their super secret gambling methods, or what casinos they frequent, or what games they play, or what they wear so they can be identified.

I asked if anyone knows of anyone that plays craps and or roulette that lives a good life paying a mortgage, food, children expenses, college funds, IRA, vacations, nice cars. Without having a day job. Someone like Billy Walters who had no problem going on 60 Minutes. Billy walters is successful and owns golf courses and Jets. All by finding consistent wins leads to consistently increasing bankrolls, and consistently bigger bets which in turn leads to consistently bigger bankrolls again ...on and on. To the point where he can afforD to bet 7 figures because of his consistent wins.
So are there any craps and roulette successes like that??? I didnt ask for names, addresses, what casinos they hang out at.

I also asked if people who claim to be winning APs. ...do a true accounting with real travel expenses deducted, treating it like a business. Do they keep separate bank accounts and credit cards like a real business to meticulously count expenses and gains and then get a real net figure at the end of the year? Or is it lossey goosey guesswork.

NONE of those questions would reveal or negatively effect an AP if answered honestly.

SO jbs I take your comment to mean you have a comprehension problem and I will not ask for a response.

 

I'll respond. From craps or roulette? No. Sure there are biased wheels it there and some are profiting, but those opportunities don't last long enough. Most top AP's are beating casino blackjack or casino poker variants using a number of methods, none of which I'll speak of here. I can't speak of others, but I keep meticulous records. And last, I haven't held any "job" in over 15 years.

 

I have seen alot of full time gamblers that havent held a job for 15 years or more.

I have seen many former business owners that had kept meticulous records.

i totally understand

 

oh yeah, and all were homeless

like I said.....I got the response I expected

 

Bottom line ..... Casino gambling is ENTERTAINMENT.

I call BULLSHIT for people claiming that they are "raising a family" playing casino table games.
If a few deranged people are trying that I have to think that is one dysfunctional family.


Just imagine the dynamic in that house where the father leaves the wife and kids to travel around looking to hopefully eek out a win.

Get up, go to work, work hard, save and invest.. Invest.... Invest... In time you will have considerable funds of which a portion can be used for ENTERTAINMENT.

Also I have never seen, and I am certain that,Mr. Scoblete, Heavy and John Patrick, never advocated anyone leave their day job to try to support a wife and kids by casino play. THEY PROVIDE METHODS THAT THEY BELIVE PROVIDE THE BEST OPPORTUNITY TO NOT GET SLAUGHTERED IN THE CASINO.... NONE SAY THEY HAVE A GET RICH QUICK SCHEME.

In addition, John Patrick likely has had a nice income from his books and tapes. He is "stuck" in Florida because he cannot fly due to a medical condition. He lives there to assist a family member.

Oh one more thing.... Casino gambling is ENTERTAINMENT.

 

It's sentences like this that have the general public fooled. No-one ever said AP was a "get rich quick" scheme except movies and tv. Casino consultants like Eliot Jacobson would also like the casino industry to think AP's are slaughtering their bottom lines so he can sell his services and seminars like the one he held at the Tuscany on July 7th. In reality, AP's are negligible to the bottom line.

 

I know several full time gamblers ... they all live in Las Vegas or fly in from LA or from near by States... Here is some of what I have found:

- None of them are raising a family... either the children are grown and out of the home or they never had children.
- Full time gamblers only play when they have an AP situation. When there is no AP to be found, they will scout for AP situations and network with fellow gamblers.
- All of the FT gamblers I ever meet live in a house they fully own. Most of them had money from previous jobs, inheritance, or from non-gambling lucrative ventures.
- Most have income flow from investments, trust funds, Social Security, properties they rent out in other states. Some had a well employed spouse who supported them.
- FT gamblers, those that live in LV, mostly live off of the casino comps for daily eating (Diamond Lounges, etc..), maximizing every promotion and free gift they can get.
- All of them are very frugal with spending, will not make bets with a high house edge, and will not gamble where they are not treated well.

From what I have learned and observed, life for the FT gambler is a lot of ups and downs, fest and famine. Casinos at times treat them like the High Roller, and other times the casino give them a lot of scrutiny, comp cutting, and heat.

Every single FT gambler I have meet said that DISCIPLINE is the only means they can survive. Without it, they would have 'flamed out' (going broke) long ago. Relationships are rough for the FT gambler, the insecurity of the lifestyle is often to much for a marriage to survive.

In my humble opinion, very few people probably could survive as a FT gambler.

 

Interesting article by Eliot Jacobson, The Top Five Advantage Plays in 2014
http://apheat.net/2014/01/09/the-top-five-advantage-plays-in-2014/

I have know for quite some time about hole-card exposed Advantage Play, where I have seen lazy, tired or untrained dealers expose the hole card. Collusion between dealers and players is also very high, something that Eliot eludes to but does not elaborate upon. My guess is that collusion is probably the biggest problem the casinos has next to employ theft.

Edge sorting or marking a card with a chip is very common. I have seen players mark cards as they move bets around. Most casinos deal in a way where this is not likely to happen, but again some dealers who are sloppy or the way the table is setup can make card marking/edge sorting very easy.

Regular blackjack card counting is dead. Just Read the Jimmy Hoffa Blog to see the amount of heat he gets http://jimmyhoofa-lv.blogspot.com , and how many casinos AP though card counting is simply not possible.

The Video Poker Players tend to exploit the incentive programs as do slot players. Interesting enough Jacobson says that Craps players fit in this category. http://apheat.net/2015/05/10/exploiting-loss-rebates-in-craps/ (Jacobson does not consider Dice Control/Dice Influence to be AP)
http://cdcgamingreports.com/commentaries/whats-skill-got-to-do-with-it/

Good podcast with Bob Dancer and Eliot Jacobson
http://www.slot-machine-resource.com/podcasts/eljacobson2.mp3

 

Wow, what a bunch of crap.
First Patrick has claimed that people can go full time gambling. He even said 20k was the minimum bankroll to start. He also said to of course get the backing of the family first before you do it.
I think its irresponsible for him to give people hope like that.....but thats him....he is a salesman...just like the DI seminar people are salesmen
Secondly Patrick claims he gets his gambling fix for craps and roulette by visiting underground illegal games.2 or 3 times a week. He doesnt drive to Mississippi or NJ. He doesnt fly to vegas,

He also talked about flying to NJ 1-2 years ago to a funeral for a relative that was killed.

7-8 years ago he gave a trip report of vegas. You must be very close to him to be able to know his medical record . According to you very shortly after his last trip to vegas he was befallen with a condition that doesnt allow him to fly.

Let me help you out.....that conditions is poverty

So your comments seem to be riddled with lies.

Do some fact checking first

 

Why would a full time gambler live in an area where they have to commute by plane especilly if its on their own dime.
That eats into profits