Baccarat SHUFFLE MANIPULATION

Had an interesting conversation with someone I see often and know as a full time pro player. He insists that MoSun unlike other casinos in Chicago and LV for instance monitor large wager winning players to discern their strategy and manipulate the shufflemaster through algorithms. He says the pre-wash factory cards come out of Taiwan and so do the algorithms. He states he knows this first hand from friends. Yes, he is Taiwanese. Finally, he says that MoSun only interested in the high rollers. Also, he says it is due to the lax attitude of the MoSun casino commission unlike in LV where it is much more scrutinized. Thus he only plays smaller limits when he is here.

Heretofore I have never believed such. But since much of my data seems to go counter to data from other sources it makes me wonder if there is a deliberate attempt to alter the patterns, if not the ratio of P and B results. Indeed, similar to anecdotal statements form JK my shoes seem to have an unusual representation of patterns. At this pint I am not bothered much due to the results I am getting from my data. But it does make me wonder if I were to play in other venues.

Right now after 365 shoes and about 22,000 decisions I show a 90% shoe win rate and 12.65 net units win per shoe. I play small and believe it difficult to ascertain my strategy BUT . . . you know, if watched it wouldn't be that hard to figure out!! In fact, if asked I could certainly design shoes that I would lose to!

"I may be paranoid but that doesn't mean somebody isn't following me."

 

They're losing because the house edge says so. There is no shuffler cheating going on ANYWHERE!

 

I don't subscribe to the existence of algorithms that can be pre-determined with shufflemaster technology. Shufflemaster technology is very efficient in randomising the cards, bar the rare odd ball shoe, you should expect basically "the norm", i.e a choppy orientated shoe, few streaks of four, few more streaks of threes and so forth, maybe a long streak of 10 or more once per 8 ~ 10 shoes.

To order a shoe via shufflemaster, I would say is near impossible, not only would the algorithm have to pre-exist, then during the shuffle procedure, specific cards would have to be held and inserted at specific places, the at the end, how would it handle the cut?

You hear some crazy things on the casino floor from both side of the table, even whom you would consider sane, have told me the angel devices change the cards inside the shoe depending on the bets placed for a particular hand.

That is not dismissing that sloppy shuffle procedures won't produce crazy shoes, however no shufflemaster technology is being used.

Can casinos manipulate shoe behaviour, sure, I believe so, but not in regards to specific patterns or producing a dominant side, the latter requires a different form of skulduggery. A sloppy hand shuffled game, will probably produce long streaks after a few shoes. To produce a one-sided dominated game, which will stay one-sided dominated (until the cards are switched out), yes that is also possible, likewise to produce a permanent choppy shoe, is also possible, as in 'choppy' after shuffle after shuffle, again until the cards are switched out, yes they could IF they wanted and felt they could get away with it, could do that.

It would takes an extreme measure for a casino to do that, such as a small provincial casino losing serious money continually to a single player. Continual as in, usually all a casino has to do with winning players is keep them at the table. However, if that doesn't work they could resort to other more nefarious measures. Firstly they would need the know-how, most floor staff wouldn't have a clue. Secondly they would need to feel comfortable that they could get away with what they are doing with no jurisdiction comeback.

Have I seen it, yes, have I experienced it, yes, can I prove it, no (I did try). Taken in isolation, sure it sounds crazy, read as a whole, i.e what transpired in the week prior, the unwritten distinction between local and visitor, casino heat, then yes it could be feasible. I've already posted what went down and the mechanics on another forum, which is now defunct.

IMO most casinos will show an interest in consistent winners, doesn't matter what the bet size is. Firstly, they want to know if some smart arse has got the better of their game, secondly they dislike players making even a few hundred per day consistently. They are not in the business of letting any punter rock up and take a few hundred say on a daily basis over even a short period of time.

They tolerate losing $20k to a single punter, but don't take kindly to a small player making $3k per month via daily action. The bigger the casino, the more tolerant they may be, but even making $40k per year with minimal risk, that person would be on their radar.

 

I'm open to the idea that the casino can change patterns of a shoe by changing Shuffle procedure Within the shuffle master.

 

If he feels that way, why go there at all? Especially when Foxwoods is only eight miles away.

MS has 32, always full, mini-baccarat tables and 17 midi, which are mostly empty. If they were only interested in certain players, it would be the hundreds of mini players who play there daily, not the relative handful who play the midi tables, mostly at the $50 minimum.

Shoes at the mini and midi tables are first shuffled seven times for perfect randomness by the shuffle master, and then once more by hand.

 

I guess you didn't read the part where I mentioned that he said the casino is only interested in the high rollers. Don't forget the big tables change cards every shoe.

Also I think you'd get an argument from a lot of people when you say that perfect Randomness exist in the shuffle procedure. And none of the cards in the casino are shuffled 7 times. I think they're using quarter deck picks shuffled just one time through.

 

Does it matter at all how the casino shuffles cards?

If the casino could select the winning hand AFTER seeing what the table is betting then that goes beyond shuffle and enters the realm of CHEATING - I don't think regulated casinos actively cheat - a casino license is one valuable asset to not lose.

No matter how the casino shuffles cards it can't guarantee to cover a gamblers bet selection, and has basically a 2/3 chance of getting it wrong for P/T/B bet selections... so it's pointless to shuffle cards in a tricky way except to maximise randomness... I guess the casino could shuffle cards to avoid Ties and Pairs but then those outcomes are improbable anyway... I don't think it's in the house's interest to rig shuffles at all, except to ensure random outcomes...

 

That's a fallacy. Some casinos are so huge, they pay incredible amounts of local taxes, employee 1000's of employee's, this risking of a license of hogwash, more likely slapped over the wrist with a wet bus ticket. Which has been the case with the Crown casino in Melbourne on not once but twice, nothing to do with Baccarat, but another casino card game, they received a small fine (twice).

True, but decks not being true, is a totally different ball-game, or card game in this instance.

 

What you mean by being true?

Normally I wouldn't entertain this notion thst the shoes could be manipulated. But I've been doing a lot of thinking about how it might be done very easily to hopefully thwart the players. What started this for me was the great disparity, indeed almost completely reversed results I am getting from soxfan data. It just doesn't seem reasonable that the same amount of data is not even close.

So I started thinking about what do we know about the shoes at least where I play?

1. Their factory pre washed. 2. They are then put in the shufflemaster. 3. They are hand shuffled in a strict fashion.

It's reasonable to think that pre washed shoes could be designed in a strict criteria to present certain card combinations. And there could be several iterations of card combinations. So you could potentially have several different wash criteria that would promote certain patterns to come out of the shoe.

The shuffle master doesn't have to be manipulated. It could mix up the different washes to promote different kinds of shoes. But the shufflemaster could also change riffles im cases where cards are continually used to produce a controlled vatiation.

And in the same manner the stringent shuffle procedure could maintain certain patterns more than others.

In my black Jack days I did quite a bit of shuffle tracking. Before they started worrying about then wash and shuffle procedure and began to plug the shoe it was pretty easy to ascertain where the tens were. In the same fashion I'm pretty sure that if you want to clump certain cards together you could produce desired outcomes.

An example to day looking at 1 shoe with the same color cards there was an extraordinary amount of similar patterns. The player may not notice this so easily because they alternate the shoe color.

Food for thought.

 

I still can't conceive a joint tryin to rig the decks against certain player(s), hey hey.

 

I know. It's hard to understand

 

All expected 52 cards x 8 are present, as a opposed to 52 cards x 8 decks being present, big difference.

I've played a a joint (6 decks), which were P dominated for an entire week, the expectation between B v's P is miniscule even for a regular daily punter.

Why pre-wash the shoes if they are going into a shuffle machine, there's literally no point.

Ditto, once removed from the shuffle machine there is no need to hand shuffle the cards. Sounds like over-kill or extreme paranoia.

Nope, these cards manufactured in Asia are produced in their thousands and sent all over the world in bulk, its silly to assume they would pre-arranged in advance prior to shipping \ storage, or sent out marked to represent their characteristics, that's crazy.
It is not even possible to place a "non-true" set of 8 decks into the machine, as it would flag an error when the bar-codes are scanned. The machines also check for deck completeness, one card missing? Would flag an error code.

There is a decent amount of info on the web regarding shuffle-master technology (I researched it years ago, I probably still have the papers on my hard drive). You would have to define the "different types of shoes".

While it is possible to produce a choppy shoe (therefore a streak shoe, but why would they ever do that), a one-sided dominated shoe (again, could not fathom why they would produce a B dom shoe), but it wouldn't be due to the shuffle-master procedure (that would have to be skipped), also not prone to the dealer shuffle.

What patterns? 1-1-1-4-1-1-1, 3-1-1-1-3-1-1-1-3, or 3,3,3,3,3 or 4,4,4,4,4 or anything along those lines, absolute no chance.

All depends on the circumstances, I firmly believe it happened to me over 15 years ago, but as I said above, you have to appreciate what transpired on the proceeding 6 nights. You can't just take what went down on the Sunday night in question in isolation.

Me and a mate had suits of suit of suits, IOW the big-wigs, standing by pillars eye-ballin us, other standing closer with a clip board in their hand writing down every single bet I made. I needed to be stopped, because they didn't know when I was going to stop, therefore couldn't risk me continuing. They did what was necessary in their eyes! For any non-believers, I had a mate with me, (the casino nicknamed Seagull, cos' they said he shits on people from high places) he can verify everything as he was with me the whole week, but he doesn't do internet forums!! Swanduck who was an infrequent poster, but long time lurker on the GG site also knows me on a personal level (we've played together for years), they weren't there for the entire week, but they know what went down. At the time Swanduck sent me a txt from another table, telling me they were writing down my bets, but I had already clocked that and was grinning in their direction. Basically what I'm saying, what I post can be verified, but you would have to meet people on a face to face basis in Adelaide to do so.

None private members casinos, i.e those operating in NZ, Australia and Canada, were they can't ban you if you do nothing wrong (don't get drunk, aren't loud and meet the dress requirements), will take action if you force their hand. Go and win $10k~$20k per night continually for a week or so, and watch what happens!!!! Do you think, they won't do anything and let you continue, willy nilly??

Thinking about it now, it was no different to what happened when I used to play roulette, as an unknown, newbie, able to mingle with the crowd (place was heaving) win $5k Friday, win $5k Sat. Come Sunday, not so busy and you're clocked as soon as you walk in the place.

Another prime example is what happened to some guy in NZ, hell of a nice guy by all accounts. He ended up in court, found guilty, landed with a criminal conviction, all because they no longer wanted his action and they had no means which to ban him. He was a successful long term non-counting BJ player (think he had the gift of memorising the cards, but I would be guessing). The casino in question [Sky City], decided they had enough and wanted him gone, so set him up using a stooge. At the end of the day, they achieved exactly what they wanted, he ended up with a unjust criminal record and a ban from entering Sky City for life, mission accomplished.

All depends how much you are winning and the regularity of action, i.e every day/ night. Plus going over the threshold for a local, as opposed to a visitor, which most won't be aware even exists, such as myself, but it was confirmed by many regulars later on.

 

I guess folks will make up their own mind. Doesn't really affect me. On a personal level I'm not too concerned about it. Just thought it was an interesting conversation from a pro player.

 

Can’t disagree with you about Crown, mate... I’ve never played Crown, oddly... maybe soon when things are up and running in Sydney... State Governments rely heavily on inefficient tax collecting (or efficient, depending upon your POV) from gambling and sundry penalties like speeding fines, they set their own sail and now dare not rock the boat...

 

After reading through a few of these last posts, I am reminded of my major gripe: casinos hate players who are regularly successful, assume that they cheat or are somehow advantaged players and therefore playing unfairly, even when they’re in the minority (they clearly are in the minority or casinos would go broke).

only dumb casual gamblers are welcome, it seems.

It’s akin to a car maker who only likes selling unreliable cars so they can milk their customers in service costs... oh, wait, I’ve owned a few BMWs in my time...

 

A Kiwi, Gidday mat8, Sky Shitty in Auckland is probably the most hostile, unfriendly casino I've ever played in world-wide. The pit-bosses are literally the pits, unbelievable what I've witnessed in that place. I was there a few years back, happened to be playing on those CSM tables early one morning, doing okay and had these two massive stacks of low value green.

For fucks sakes, less than $1k in total, over a foot high. The Maori pitt-boss asks me if I had a card, I said no, win a few more hands and he boots over a chair which was at the other side of the table cos he didn't like to see me winning. Upstairs on the Baccarat balcony, heard another pit, remark, "I'm glad he lost, I can't stand him", about another customer. Both of these low-life have been there since the placed opened. Then you have to put up with a dealer, continually moaning "I hate dealing this stupid game, its stupid", you there trying to have a good time, yet have to put up listening to this shit.

There was this old very tall Chinese regular player, must have been close on six foot six, grey hair, bead, probably their biggest hitter, He walks into the VIP lounge, the Maori floor manager, starts shouting across the entire floor, "tracked player, tracked player". I'm sitting there thinking, Jesus talk about being discrete. Another pit-boss talking to nobody in particular how much he hates drug dealers, they should be shot. I'd had enough by then and told him, they were his best customers and you lot turn a blind eye. He slinks off, I mean how many Asian gangs have been exposed over the years using the VIP rooms to conduct their drug deals and use the joint for money laundering? Two-faced prick.

New Zealand prides its-self on customer service, this joint is openly hostile, the comments at the end of this shoe when their tray got cleaned out after this shoe, "it's only a loan, we'll get it back", open fumes a plenty, they were literally cursing in front of customers.



Fuckin' weird, they have invested thousands in Angel Shuffle Technology, but don't use them, rather use, pre-shuffled cards from Asia, which are cut and loaded into the shoe. It was a standing joke, "what are you giving us next".





CSM games (never ending shoes), I unfortunately got talking to the guy in the white shirt standing at the table. Nice enough fella, reckoned he's been working on a system for over 6 months, which must / has to work, because he's spent so much time on it WTF! Took him upstairs for a bite to eat and introduced him to a smart savvy friend of mine. The consensus after he left, he was totally off his rocker, too far gone, just couldn't reason with the bloke. . I saw some crazy shit on those tables, such as sitting next to a guy who was blind, he used to ask the dealers to call out the cards, some did, some couldn't be arsed. Alas got to be honest, my jaunt didn't turn out well.

 

Mate, I played once at Sky City when I gad NO IDEA what gambling was, I was just there to lose a bit, and I did!

Sydney is a one horse town but the Chinese players are so noisy and easy with losing money that little old me looks like a small time newbie as I try to pick out the hookers I know... when I’m comfortably hitting decent daily profit I plan to cycle between Melbourne, Brisbane, Gold Coast and Adelaide... I’m already recognised on sight by the door security in Sydney, although it happily sounds like it’s a friendlier place to play than Auckland.

I’m a simple B/P Baccarat punter, staying away from Ties and other exotic bets, and eschewing the idea that I’m a skilled poker or blackjack player...

Nice to hear from a local player!

 

Recall when they first opened, teams of professional BJ players flew in from around the world, and took them for $6 million.

 

My new acquaintance said today, how come there is a land line connected to the shufflemaster? He says at the big tables they will choose to bring in certain decks based on certain players. He said notice how you get shoes that stay the same such as a lot of streaks for awhile and then just the opposite. He said they're not cheating just trying to throw players off.

Today's shoes had fewer 2's and a lot of longer repeats on both colors for 4 shoes each. Two days ago, just the opposite - lots more 2's and small chops, very little longer runs. Short runs don't bother me too much but I prefer shoes with more repeats of 3's and higher cause they're easy winners for me.

Just saying.

 

It's just a RJ45 cable, used for data transfer (including IP phones). Depending on the hook up your referring to, the shoe itself, the bar-code scanner \ or dealer needs to send data to the score board, RJ45 cable are the norm in all businesses. I've heard this kind of nonsense spouted in casinos.