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Craps The most debated topic in craps ...Dice Control

Discussion in 'Craps Forum' started by SCAN, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. SCAN

    SCAN New Member Founding Member

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    So are you a believer in dice control?

    I have been around the topic for years. I can tell you unequivocally no one can "control" the dice.
    However, there are some people, albeit a very small group, that after extensive practice, can "influence" the dice.
    I know you are going to say I am delusional or a huckster but I am neither.
    I have been at the table with the most well known names in the craft. I watch their setup, pitch and dice landing and I believe their technique effects the outcome as compared to a guy just chucking the dice down the table.


    Can a lot of people do this? No, like anything else it takes some natural ability mixed with dedicated practice...practice...practice.

    Are they getting rich from it? Again no. The edge the best dice influencers get is very small. In addition few play big money. It is a way to enhance their hobby of craps. The casino tolerates modest wins from the best players because they know "wanna-be" influencers will eventually lose more than the experts win.

    Are there "professionals?" Not in my opinion. Although the there are a few people on the Internet claiming to do this exclusively and make 6 figures per year, I personally doubt it. The technique is obvious. If a person was using the standard tosses and killing the casino they would be asked to pass the dice.
     
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  2. superrick

    superrick Active Member Founding Member

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    Look some teachers of the on axis craps shooting hate me, because I tell it like it is. Everybody that I know calls me a DI, but there is more to being called a DI then just shooting. For one thing the dice bounce all over the place when you are shooting, there can be no denying that fact, all you have to do is watch all of the slow-motion videos that there are now on the internet.


    You can only win at craps by knowing what you are really up against. Sure there are players that just happen to walk up to a table at the right time and can be making every stupid bet there is and still win, but that will not happen every time they play the game. Luck has a lot to do with some players winning and timing does too. There is nothing like being at a table at the right time when the shooter can't do anything wrong.


    So with that said lets see what really happens when your dice hits the tables!


    Is there anybody you know in these videos? If you don't like what you are seeing I don't know what to tell you. There is no way that a shooter can control the dice when they are shooting on axis, it simply does not happen! The casinos are costing themselves money with all of the things they have done to try to stop these so-called DI's. For one thing the casinos only make money when the dice are on the table, now days because of all of the fiction they actually believe that the so-called DI's are doing something when they are actually just get lucky like everybody else!













    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k467uPlLn3A

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXc2PXS114&index=12&list=TLPhC1SU9dvTE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkU458iCDiY&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hheh7c6J77Y&index=34&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOOULZHKNo0&feature=youtu.be

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NaIs8y_hE&index=37&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZf3jbjie0&list=UUfDRf2L1rCEgYtGFlS_z9ag

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-R8XYUjhs&list=PL29EB7437F6533C12

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68pu1F0D_9g

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_wQN7MELc

    This guy found 172 videos on throwing the dice or dice control and put them all in one spot for your viewing pleasure and he surely saved me a lot of work! Just page down on the right side to see all of the videos he found.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MrqyVrQWck&list=PL57YTXgE9UrKJJZsOGpdaFhWAEETRt-rU

    Lets not forget the one guy that had the best set-up for dice control, Aaron Hightower who went the extra mile to try to prove that dice control either work or it didn't. I have to give him a high-five for all of the work he put into it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2QS26ppbc8

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBJwLtAORa0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSfu5QDDVA

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM3qDV9Lz3Y

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTzwChYv0U

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni-uMB17x4I
     
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  3. albalaha

    albalaha Active Member Founding Member

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    I think Frank Scoblete can provide nice inputs on dice control.
     
  4. superrick

    superrick Active Member Founding Member

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    Frank has something to sell, unlike some of us that are trying to get everybody to understand what you are really up against. The videos speak for themselves, no on-axis craps school has ever done a few videos where their dice stay on axis. Now that we have slow-motion videos of what the dice really do when they hit the tables, the BS ends!

    What they have done is show very well edited videos where you can't see what really happens. When you aren't selling anything you can persent the real story! Now even with that said I wouldn't go so far as to tell anybody that they shouldn't take a class, if they go into it with their eyes wide open. The other thing is that what ever school they go to,... has to teach good sound betting fundamentals.

    They also shouldn't have fiction on their craps boards. If your going to pay good money to take a class, why in the world would you take a class from a school that has nothing but fiction on their craps board. Most of these on-axis craps schools have based what they do on nothing but fiction, like the SRR of 28, and they still allow these fiction writers to keep posting, hoping to draw in some students that know no better!

    By the looks of it there are some very knowledgeable members on this board on the other forums besides craps. I see some DI's on these board that you will get some very good advice from that have nothing to sell. I don't think that you could go wrong with BigBen or $nakeEyes, although I have yet to play craps on the same tables with them, but I have heard some good things about them!
     
    Fritz likes this.
  5. albalaha

    albalaha Active Member Founding Member

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    I have heard that Frank is an authority on Dice Control and would appreciate his opinions. Someone writing books on gambling should not be always thought of with suspicion. Buy something or not is always your own prerogative but there is no harm in listening a pro.
     
  6. Frank Scoblete

    Frank Scoblete Active Member Founding Member

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    I am not quite sure why Superrick talks about on-axis schools. (I don't really know the various dice schools so maybe some are strictly teaching on-axis performance. I do know many of the betting schemes are poorly thought-out in these schools.) Dice control does not have to be on-axis to work. I answered many of Rick's questions on the Wizard of Odds' Vegas board but he does the same post over and over regardless of who answers what. That's fine but I don't really want to go over this time and again.

    So here is what I will do. I'll send a free copy of my advanced craps book (Cutting Edge Craps: Advanced Strategies for Serious Players) that goes over exactly what happens to dice when they hit the back wall. I do not recommend anyone attempt the betting ideas in the book unless you are an elite dice controller. I have 15 copies available.

    There are relatively big players using dice control. I tend to be one. I know of over a dozen that are in the $500 to $2,000 range with their initial spread. Naturally, if the amount a player bets gets into his head, his ability to perform will be diminished, if not totally destroyed.

    The arguments over the words "control" and "influence" have no meaning to me. I like the word "control" because it is a more powerful word. But they are the same to me, sans their emotional thrust, so when I am speaking of dice control, I am speaking about dice influence too.

    As far as selling books, videos, articles, teleplays, screenplays --- that's what writers do. Of course, I want to sell my works; I've written 35 books, some plays, some television shows and I've consulted on movies and in law cases. It is no sin to want people to buy your stuff.

    I remember when I was going to give a talk at a famous book store (this is sad, I can't remember which), several hours before Stephen King was to talk. I went into the store to make sure my books were prominently displayed. While King had a whole table of books at the front of the store, there he was in the science fiction/horror section making sure the books that were not in the front were prominently displayed in that section. If Shakespeare were alive, he'd be promoting his stuff just this way.

    But you will notice I am not dumping a load of books on anyone in any of the forums where I have posted. I might mention a book here or there but I am not out loudly banging the drums. In fact, my hello on this site was merely an hello. I tend to give the books away to the posters on the forums. I am lucky to be able to do that because my books are big sellers.

    Somehow people attack writers for writing and wanting to sell their writing. Now that is weirder than someone who does or doesn't believe in dice control.
     
    Fritz likes this.
  7. Frank Scoblete

    Frank Scoblete Active Member Founding Member

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  8. superrick

    superrick Active Member Founding Member

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    So Frank what are you saying now? Didn't you teach that you were shooting on axis?
    Everybody that writes for a living has the right to sell their books and I have never read a bad book where I didn't get something out of it. Right now I reading The Craps Underground so I can do a review on it!

    When you are playing craps if you want to win you can't live in a fantasy world, where you believe in all of the fiction that has been written by some of our so-called DI's. Where they write that they have an SRR of 28 or some other ridiculous claims to fame.


    Some of these casinos are so freaked out by anybody that sets the dice now days because of all of the fiction that has been written by what I call out great fiction writers on becoming a DI. That they are hassling anybody the sets the dice. Now we have been over this on other boards and I have never called you a fiction writer. I've been on tables when you were shooting. You are a world famous Gambling writer. So with that said lets get off anybody thinking that when I say there are fiction writers that I'm not writing about you, we all know that wouldn't be true if someone thought I was!


    So now that we cleared the air once again, everybody would be a lot better off if they realized that there is no way your dice will ever stay on axis when you are trying to be a so-called DI. That your dice bounce all over the place when you make a shot and some times they do come up on the numbers you want to see. You also need very smart betting to beat the game or you need to get very lucky when you are playing.
    Come on Frank don't you think that the word control should just go away. They is no way you or anybody else can control the dice. If you could there would be no more games of craps in the casinos.


    You have to admit just anybody else you have your good days and your bad day, there is no way that you can say your next shot will be a ten and hit it every time you make a shot. That would be dice control, if you could do it! That will never happen, if it did you couldn't play in any casino in this country. Casinos are here to make money and every game they have is a negative game for you the player!
     
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  9. Frank Scoblete

    Frank Scoblete Active Member Founding Member

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    Okay, I admit (as I have admitted for over a quarter century) that I have good days and bad days. In fact, I covered my worst string of losses in one of my books --- over 70 times with the dice where I sevened-out without winning on any of those turns. Took me a little short of a week to do that! Students were there. People who knew me were there. The crew. The boxman. The floor man. The pit. It was awful. So I have no problem saying of course I have good days and bad days. And I write about both. (One of the criticisms against me is that I only write about my good rolls. I wish I never had bad rolls to write about but I do.)

    On-axis throws are good. Non-on-axis throws that reduce the appearance of the seven are good. The difference between these throws is often misunderstood. The on-axis throws do not need a big reduction in the percentage of sevens appearing --- or any reduction. If you have on-axis ability (which does take quite some time to develop --- and many, many players never develop it and many also --- oh, so sad --- think they have developed it and start changing their dice sets as if they have developed it) you can win money with short rolls. So on-axis and SRR rolls are not the same thing. (They are not mutually exclusive but they sometimes are --- there's a brain teaser.)

    Listen, I do like the terms "dice control" over the terms "dice influence" but that's just me. I really don't see the need to go ape over which is used. That's a language debate. It has nothing to do with going into the casinos and winning money.

    As far as casinos, there are very interesting reactions. The pit folk and dealers who say that dice control (INFLUENCE!) doesn't work are usually the ones that go crazy when people show care with their rolls. They'll say things to (maybe) controlled shooters such as "Don't you know that doesn't work?" Then they go wild if such a shooter should miss the back wall. I've written in the books (that I want to sell to the whole world) that the modern-day dice controller wants to hit the back wall; shots that miss the back wall are almost universally random.

    There is one problem with some dice setters --- and dice setters are not controlled shooters, they are just dice setters --- and that is the amount of time they may take with setting the damn dice. That can be irritating to the players and the casino personnel.

    Okay, my pizza has arrived.
     
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  10. Kevin Greenstreet

    Kevin Greenstreet New Member Founding Member

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    The know nothing dice setters are the dorks that really chap our arses from the other side of the game. Not because we fade the heat from the box or the "peak", because they don't have the slightest concept of why they are bogging the game pace to a crawl. They just think that settin' on a hard 6 like the saw in some bogus YouTube video makes them a star attraction for a nano-second in time. Savvy players who are gonna set the dice are gonna know where the #'s they want are located, most will set quick, shoot, and we can continue the game. I've always preferred a brisk game pace (not because I'm working either) and most of the solid customers I know do as well,IMHO. As far as the validity of the DC/DI concept, lets just say I'm a sceptic.
     
  11. Fritz

    Fritz New Member Lineage to Founders

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    I've watched all 22 videos in the original post. I also went back & watched a few beginner videos to know proper betting & odds. I even watched 13 of the 172 & some are an hour long.

    I watched Frank Scobletes Golden Touch videos. I've been watching videos on dice setting and control all day. I actually took breaks to eat and got back to it. They are still on as I write.

    I truly believe that Dice setting & +- control works. 4/2set, 3Vset, 2Vset, 6544set, 6554set, 6456set & crossed 6set will favour certain #'s will give you less 7's, period. 7's set, str8 6's set, 6556set should be thrown to set # and will hit more 7's. Or so it seems. You need to practice a ton. Just memorizing every set to throw that favours what # is difficult, never mind getting enough practice to throw dice on axis. From what I have seen, you need to practice for hours a day for 6 months till you see regular results. It's not foolproof, it's an edge & not an easy 1 to do or maintain either.

    That said, this only works when you are the shooter. It does slow down the game cause you need to set your dice, but you get faster with time. I wouldn't care about slowing the game & neither should anyone else. I wouldn't be there just for fun. I'm mostly there to make $ and so should every one else at the table. They should be happy when someone can manipulate throws, throw less 7's & throws longer.

    If you are not the only shooter (usually U R not), you better know how to place your bets to make any ground and stay at the table till it's your shot. But you can certainly go with a friend which has throwing skills also. Grow your winnings/edge exponentially. It sounds like a long-shot, but nothing is ever easy.

    That being said, I'm going to experiment. I will be purchasing Frank Scobletes 2 books & buying a diamond back rubber & craps felt on Amazon & I'm going to build a quick table & practice. Why not? It's not like I have anything but time on my hands.

    Does this make sense ?? Do I sound nuts ?? I'm thinking this is where I should ask. Craps section of the forum.
    Feedback on this crazy notion would be appreciated. I ran it by a couple of friends, 5 to be exact, and only 1 said it COULD work. The others laughed and laughed..
     
  12. Frank Scoblete

    Frank Scoblete Active Member Founding Member

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    Do it. There are two tests that will tell you whether you can or whether you can't. It took me three years so you will not be looking at immediate success.
     
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  13. Fritz

    Fritz New Member Lineage to Founders

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    I'm a little starstruck here I didn't notice that you r the real Frank Scoblete till L8 last night, but I think I'm supposed to say:
    I will do it & What would those two tests be ??

    FYI: I've found a site to practice on for my methods of betting. Today, I am just betting the Iron Cross over & over. I've been throwing & recording wins. So far Iron Cross is tight but not much action. Tomorrow, I will try the next system & so on & repeat. I'll find Fritzs betting system in time. If there are any systems that I should try that any1 thinks I should experiment with, please share if possible.

    I've also ordered the equipment needed to build rig. (4-8weeks delivery). But in the meantime, I've built one out of cardboard & have put a target 3-6" from wall both for left handed & right handed shots & up on the wall 3-10" up on it. I won't be recording shots yet. I'm only using this to practice my grip & throw. I'm sure it'll take much longer than 4-8weeks to get a descent grip & throw going. My hand hurts a lot already & I've only thrown 45min. I'm Trying to concentrate on the targets, having dice sticking together, revolving backwards 3-4times from 7-12' & sticking on axis. IT IS UNBELIEVABLY HARD.. Also the dice I have at present SUCK. I'll need to find a couple of dozen real DICE asap.

    I needed a break from Poker anyway.
     
  14. Frank Scoblete

    Frank Scoblete Active Member Founding Member

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    I'm sending you copies of my books. The more advanced one, forget about using the betting techniques. They are for a handful of elite dice controllers. But you will find the analysis of how dice react on a table to be interesting.
     
  15. Fritz

    Fritz New Member Lineage to Founders

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    It is much appreciated Mr Scoblete. I can't wait to receive them & I will read them, make notes & develop my game as best I can.

    I have an addictive personality so whatever I do I overdo to the best of my ability. I have great hand eye coordination & feel that if I practice, I can maybe get +-proficient at controlling throws. And, with the right betting foundation, I'm hopeful I can devise my own +EV system on a lukewarm table.

    I suppose hot tables R easy to make coin on. Like playing the nuts in poker. Any monkey can play the nuts. It's a much harder to play every other hand.


    Thank you very much, you are a scholar & a gentleman.
     
  16. Grafstein_disciple

    Grafstein_disciple Member Founding Member

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    Interesting Post...and interesting subject. One that conflicts me because I want to believe - but based on what I have witnessed ...over 30 years in Vegas and especially in a setting were everyone at the table was a self professed dice influencers....the results! Talking to life long dealers who have seen these guys flyin to throw dice and telling me they haven't ever seen one "influence" the game.

    I think for one - the results and boasts are based on "one roll" of the dice - I need the full facts - the sample size to be much larger....much much larger. I have been a dice influencer one time where I had a seven point - four natural hand ... yes for that 30 mins I was a dice influencer!!

    I think those that have "great tosses" still can't control the axis more than 50% of the time ... and that seems high to me. One bounce on a table can impact the dice .... it ain't easy.

    So if they CAN control the axis of the dice 50% of the time - but not the actual "on face" meaning that the 4 sides will be completely random ....what is the impact on the overall Vig....that's the question. Help me with the math someone? What is the SSR in that situation?

    I like WINCRAPS for simulating those dice control/influence numbers, and then running my betting systems through the progressions....The results - LOSS and imagine that - the house still wins.

    SO the question - how do the "best" dice influencers win if in simulations the house edge still grinds you down, and how can you possibly win if you taking on bets like placing 4-5-9-10 ... with vig over 4% and 5% in case of the 5-9.

    I've seen them all - and while I won't say I've never seen someone impact the dice - I do believe the impact is "minimal" and at the absolute BEST situation might get to what I said above - 50% of the time on axis....

    Thoughts?
     
  17. Frank Scoblete

    Frank Scoblete Active Member Founding Member

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    Just about every table I've been at (and other than my partners), I see almost no real dice controllers (influencers). So over my quarter century of play, with a few marked exceptions, the numbers of real controllers is small and most players won't even realize it if one were at their table. There are plenty of dice setters though.

    Also most players are not that focused on the form of other players. In addition, controllers do not have great rolls every session so they fall on their faces as do random rollers. The great (and few) on-axis shooters win most of their money on small rolls of a repeating or a couple of repeating numbers. These rolls don't look like much.

    As for dealers and casino pit personnel, just watch them watching a game and you note they are more interested in the specific jobs they have to do than watching every throw. (Unless the shooter takes too much time or is winging the dice all over the place --- including consistently off the table.) The dealers I have taught think it is possible.

    How many people who attempt it learn it learn it? How many actually beat the casinos? A few. Most of the downfall of craps players (and most casino gamblers) concerns the fact that they can't stay away from bad bets. These players (these multitudes) try to logic their way out of the math of the game. That's not only called a gambler's logic but a gambling disaster.
     
  18. diceinfluence

    diceinfluence New Member Lineage to Founders

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    If a shooter controlled the axis 50% of the time on both die's the impact vs. certain points plays out like this ...

    3V - you increase the # of sixes or eights from 5/36 possible combinations to 5.563/36 combinations - the 3V also impacts the number of sevens to decrease from 6 per 36 rolls to 5.625 per 36 rolls.

    You also increase the number of 5/9 possibilities from 4 possible combinations to 4.375 possible combinations.

    To take advantage of this slight edge, I would recommend placing 5-6-8-9 - one of those obviously being your point - but then placing the others at a minimum - taking a same bet initially three times ... before doing a full parlay ... so basically get your money back ... before getting agro.

    Where a random shooter is facing 6 to 5 odds ... a dice influencer at 50% can have a minimal impact on the outcome vs. 6/8....and now becomes a 5.563 vs. 5.625 or roughly even money on the bet.

    The problem is too many people do the calculation of "dice influencing" at 100% and therefore over value their limited ability ...for instance someone playing as a Dice Influencer and only being able to roll one out of four times with influence - the impact is MINIMAL at best...and I believe a majority of Dice Setters are a long way off from being Dice Influencers.

    Thanks for your contributions.
     
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  19. cornerking

    cornerking New Member Founding Member

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    Newbie question.

    I have seen lots of posts of people at home practicing throwing dice against a cardboard DIY mock up.
    Doesn't the proper table has a side that has a mass of triangular prisms to introduce a bit of chaos in the deflection?
     
  20. Fritz

    Fritz New Member Lineage to Founders

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    Yes, but from what I understand & I have a mock up, is:

    The mock up is to learn how to throw the dice, how to arc and revolve them to get them to hit at a certain part of the table near the wall & when they hit the felt the dice are side by side in their "set" & hit the table as flat as possible to stop forward progression as much as possible. Then, hit the wall & not fly all over the place uncontrollably. So, even if they do hit the wall and get angled off by the diamond rubber they will not flip flop around many times. The less force of impact against the wall, the more controlled the outcome.. or something like that..

    & if just once a night, u throw a perfect throw which hits flat and stops & doesn't hit the wall, that's a legal throw. You might get warned but throw will count & U make $.

    It is surely not "controlled"(literally) but it is "more controlled" than someone who grabs the dice jumbles em up in their hands and just throws em anywhere against the wall. The edge is minimal but edge is edge. If it was not edge and worked every time, it would be cheating. It's an advantage player that does this & gets an edge by doing so.

    I hope I explained this correctly as Frank Scoblete is the KING of this and is part of this thread.
     

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