Baccarat TRIPLE ZIG ZAG

The other day I stated in a post that there was no way to take advantage of the singles, doubles, etc. and I was wrong again. Yep I have recently been using the triple zig zag for recoup. Johno/Eaglite/Junket King shared it with me I don't know 15- 20 years ago.
Johno had written a full on system better than that of any system seller out there. He shared it with me and because of MY failure with it I didn't use or care that much for it.
His explanation went something like, it catches all chopping, and any twos, and he even had the math for how many times a triple would actually hit the whole thing or usually split on the three. He has brought the bet selection up many times as well and has explained how to play it and split up your losses etc.
I would strongly recomend looking up all his posts and reading them.
First my initial failure was I had ran the pppbbbpppbbb 3z while it seldom lost 2 in a row with the shoes I had on hand and maybe 6 in a couple of the shoes I was like this is the crap. I took it to the casino and my first shoe hit bbbpppbbb I dropped it and went to my usual bet selection method. Next shoe tried again and Murphy's law got me bbbpppbbb two shoes in a row. Hand shuffles uh yeah. But if I had waited and played what the shoe was giving me in the pattern?
Now enter the new machine and pre shuffles and my play had diminished. I went from a very strong hit rate to struggling to survive. One poster on here told me adapt or die. He was right. And so was Junket.

One thing JK does'nt like is trending however I watch to see what the bet selection does. Instead of his grid of ppp with bbb under it and ppp again etc. I use columns. This puts it on steroids. PB in the first two columns. Then 3 columns of the pppbbbppp thats the first then stagger step bpppbbb and last bbpppbbb now draw a line every 3 decisions across all 3.

JK has repeatedly told everyone that mm is king. This is no different your looking for one hit in 3 decisions. Study your mm. Today I had out of 2 and a half shoes a 3 miss in one column. That's right it hit every time but one 3bet attempt. Now there was another column that was missing out the ying yang. BUT besides running for the 3 at the line and stopping at a hit waiting for the next opportunity.
I noticed the column not producing a win every time for a full shoe would hit a follow within 2 of the line. Thats right for close to 70 decisions 1 column would if the third decision hit the first would hit if it missed the one after would miss. The only way to see this is to set up your own tracking. I would stop at 2 bets to not dig a hole.

Now JK stated in thread that when the 3Z wasn't working he would switch to follow. I had 0 success with that but looking for a trend of follow in a column at the line.....Well booyah....

And last sorry if this sounds like prop up of JK. But he has if not found damn close to the holy grail.
One last thing He has stated many times its hard to get that one win. With 3 columns it should be easier. With some hitting the follow....easier...and lastly. What happens when all 3 columns are getting at least one hit? I stick with one main column of my choice. lf I hit it on the first or second bet and the other strong column hasn't hit yet I'll jump to it for one to two bets till the 3 line and back to my main column........A hot shoe like that is sweet. Yep Jk your right it does'nt matter what the decisions are that come out its catching them in a bet series.

Well thats my take on the JK TRIPLE ZIG ZAG I want to thank JK for it and all his MM advice. I wrote this post with his permission. He said he will check in and comment. Watch for it the Bac people on youtube will have this up in less than a week. When I talked about multiples being together they showed up with the uh uh attched multiples. Well have fun system sellers this IS the actual shit.

PORKY

 

Triple zig zag. A blast from the past. Then you got the double ZigZag. Both have similar nemesis, but both tend to chop up a shoe and can reduce LIARS - to a point. Good for Negative progressions.

 

Thanks for those sentiments Porky,

I always grade systems by "what is their nemesis", what pattern/sequence is going to result in a losing a bunch of decisions.
This is the criteria for any system, if you can't tell me what it loses against, then I'm not interested, because you should know this..


The Triple Zz held it's own, would capture (capture as in return a win within a series of bets) chops, 2,s, 16% of any series of 3's, 4's and everything and anything else. The tolerance was a win within 4 bets.

So when it comes to it's nemesis pattern, it is way up there (on paper at least), I used this for a some considerable time at the tables. As with any casino play, you can win for months, but if you lose on occasions, struggle too often, you tend to start giving up and move on to something else.

Yes, repeating 3's only 16% of the time was the bane of the system, when your playing 50~60 shoes per week, you'll be surprised how often you'll get hit.

To explain the 16% figure.

Using columns of 3's, a streak of 3 can start from 1 of 3 positions, so that gives you a 33% chance of being hit because only those streaks of 3 starting at position 1 are your nemesis, next, an exact streak of 3 has to be the opposite of the side which you are betting, therefore you can half the 33% to 16.5%.

MM is paramount, because it is your staking regime that will fail before the bet selection, there will be many scenarios of LLW, LLW, LLW, the bet selection is doing what it is suppose to do, it is not failing, how is you staking plan handling it?

Porky you mention you ran into "pppbbbpppbbb", yep too bad if your betting bbbpppbbbppp, you must apply the brakes after 4Liar, wait for the pattern to break and commence your recoup. I've been hit by that many times and came up with a few options to attempt to circumvent the damage. I have to point out it is rare to be in the 16% zone of the above sequence.

Option #1 Record the shoe using columns of 6's and split those columns horizontally in the middle.

Instead of this (decisions are in numerical order)

1-4-7
2-5-8
3-6-9

You do this;

1-7
2-8
3-9
-----------------
4-10
5-11
6-12

You bet triple Zz both top and bottom, so for example top 3 rows would run BBBPPPBBBPPP and bottom 3 rows PPPBBBPPPBBB

Now you're probably thinking "wait a minute, what's the difference". The difference is placeholders. With the top example you have 3 rows (3 placeholders), a streak 3 starting at position 1 AND opposite to the side which you are betting is your nemesis.

With the second example, you have 6 placeholders, now a 3 streak and opposite to what you are betting has to start precisely at row 1 or row 4, yet any streak of 3 has 6 positions from which it can start. Basically I'm trying to break the damn thing up via distribution, it adds an extra layer of randomness to it, something is less likely to happen when it has 6 possible starting positions compared to 3.

Option #2

If you are encountering LLLL or LLLLLL that can only mean one thing, either BBBPPP and you're on the wrong side of it, or a streak of 6 if using option 1 above. Basically the shoe is ripe for FLD because there is no 2nd line hole gap. Hence why I suggested switching to "follow". Bearing in mind, any follow or chop trends don't last forever.

There is an element of trending involved, which I don't like, however that is solely determined by any sequences of losses.

Alas, once you start getting hit to often, I give up on it, but I did use it for a very long period, while it near enough it was very hard to fail, after you have played this for a while and look at your Win v's Loss ration, it wasn't so great, BUT the bet selection hardly failed.

Obviously applying the same principal but using columns of 4's (which I've also used when my back was against the wall), is significantly more robust, as in seriously more robust, the nemesis is something like 12.5% of any given streak of 4, that's it.

This means the bet selections wins against chops, 2's, 3's, streaks of 4's 87.5% of the time and literally everything else, it's as damn near as bullet proof as you are going to get in terms of bet selection. Like I say, I would use it for desperation recovery purposes.

So I guess you're wondering why not use it all the time?? If you are on the ball that's really shouldn't be hard to figure out!!!

 

So I guess you're wondering why not use it all the time?? If you are on the ball that's really shouldn't be hard to figure out!!!

I would guess that you would not have many bets per shoe and that instead of stopping at 4 bets, you would stop at 6 bets.

 

4ColZz, is a bet selection that hardly ever fails, it is not that efficient in terms of ratio of W's v L's and more importantly the MM is a lot more difficult.

 

I don't seem to have a "like" button here (not yet), so thank you.

 

@Junket King

I hope I'm not being too presumptious

But between your 5COL-AM3 and the TRIPLE ZIGZAG, which one gives you a better W/L series?

Or is a better question "does either 5COL-AM3 or TRIPLE ZIGZAG, give you a better W/L series?

 

I hope you're talking about ZZ as XXOO. Not XXXOOO. If so you might be on to something.

J

 

5Col-AM3, haha, I had totally forgotten about that, took me a while to figure out what it was and why I used it.

Triple Zz loses to 33% of any given streak of 3 divided by 2. 50% of the time you're on it, 50% of the time you're not, so 16.5% nemesis.

5Col-AM3 is 20% of any given streak of 3 divided by 2, so a mere 10% chance of losing 4 bets in a row.

As for W/L stats, I never kept them for shoes I played at the table, only my test result.
The W/L ratio was 52%, I can't locate the figures for 3Col-Zz.

The achilles heel of 5Col-AM3, and which bugged me after 3L (the nemesis 10% occurrence) was that the system now has you betting the streak of 3 will go to 4. The problem is the expected Math says it won't and in more cases than not that rang true. If you divert then you are not sticking to the fixed system, rather playing some botched Anti-Streak method.

I vaguely recall if you lose just 2 columns in a shoe your win/loss ratio will probably be under 40% as the max number of bets you can win in any given 4 hand sequence is 1, again the emphasis is entirely on MM with zero need to waste your energy starring at the score-board.

I tried a few options, such as win within 2 bets, then stop for that column, win bets 3 or 4 (LLW or LLLW), then go for additional wins per column on subsequent columns. Then you have the "fuck it" option and just bet every hand, which actually got me out of a jam once.
Not as silly as it appears, because if you hit a losing column you're losing 4 bet regardless, so you might as well try and redress that, alas it doesn't fit my mind set, maybe somebody could test it. .

As the maximum number of bets you can win in a given 5 hand sequence is 1, the most you can lose is obviously 4, sometimes the 3col bet options produced better W/L ratios.

Only when you at a evenly paced Baccarat game, do you realise the pros and cons of whatever you are playing, something that can't be replicated at home. 5col is way more robust, however once you lose a column of bets, it's difficult to win over 50% of your bets for that shoe, it's more geared for reducing sequences of losses.

These are fixed bet options, that don't fail that often, but as always it always boils back to money management, in particular handling 4 or 6 LIAR. As Jim wisely said, control the LIAR and you control the game, I take from that, it doesn't matter if you never score above 50%, so long as your LIAR are manageable, able to do that and you sail through everything.

Again, another variation of this was 6Col-AM4, average 20 shoe W/L ratio was 51%, some great shoes, some rough shoes, the only positive is when using 6Col you can apply many bet methodologies at the same time, such as waiting for virtual losses, which I used a lot. 6-col was my preferred way of recording a shoe as I would run 5 or 6 bet options.


I wanna add this at it seems relevant, you're at the table your mind is focused, real money is now at risk, you have written down say 6 triggers to look for (these are usually always based around virtual losses), which then become 2nd nature. After many sessions you realise one of your bet options is providing next to no bet triggers so you drop it as it's a complete waste of time!!! LOL.

Why is that? It's only after any given losing session you might reevaluate, "why was that dropped bet option returning minimal bet triggers?", Hmmm "maybe because it very rarely lost", "it lost less often than all the other shit I'm using combined" Duh, penny drop!!!!

Then I've got Jimbo's mantra "control the LIAR, then you control the game" circling my head, hmmm, it maybe the most robust, yet it's also not exactly smart to be risking 6 bets just to win 1 either!! Hence the birth of 7Col-ABR.

Hi Jim, trust you're well and staying safe.

3Col-Zz is XXXOOO, 4col-Zz = XXXXOOOO.

I never liked XXOO as repeating 2's are to common and there was only a 50% chance you wouldn't be on the wrong side of them.

As stated above, if I've lose all bets against a streak of, 2, 3 or 4 I am loathed to now bet on the continuance of those mentioned streak lengths, that never sat right with me, was never comfortable with it, which is after a period I gave all Zz options a wide-berth.

 

And again, thank you Junket King for your response.

 

I'm well thank you.
Like anything else you need a tweak to overcome the HA of any fixed placement. With the ZZ when you're out-of-sync 1/3 of the time. The other times you're in sync which covers you and sometimes you are half in sync. Like anything else it's a 50-50 bet.

Your friend and mine, Sucksfan and I, looked at it extensively for a while before he went off the wall and sat in front of Party Poker for three years writing down P's and B's!!!!! I guess covid did a funny thing to his brain.

But one might consider using Sputnik's idea of playing the "set of 2" betting against the Triplet to overcome the problem with ZZ.

 

Porky, sorry but this is clear as mud to me. So just wondering when you say zig zag, you mean betting BPBPBPB... Hmm. (Nevermind just thought I'd put it out there)

 

When using Zig-Zag you can use double or triple Zz, as in BBPPBBPP or BBBPPP etc.

 

Ahh, I get now. Thanks Junket King.

 

Just to add, when considering these options, look at what it loses against. BPBPBP is being on the wrong side of chops and chops occur 50% of the time, so basically you're gonna get hit often.

BBPPBB reverse 2's (plus odd ball patterns), 2's occur 25% of the time so you should get hit half the amount of time compared to the above.

BBBPPP reverse 3's (+odd ball streaks of 6) 12.5% of the time, so your nemesis pattern is becoming less and less.

Finally BBBBPPPP is reverse 4's (+ odd ball streak of 8) which is very rare, occurs 6.25% of the time, not all 4 by 4's hurt you only 50%, however the MM is simply too hard but not impossible.

 

You can zigzag on the roulette mat you know.


The above is using red. Just watch the R/B score

 

bppppb
bbpbpp
bbbpbp
pbbbbb
ppbppb
pppbpp

All col. are top to bottom. Two columns of 3 so a line straight down the middle will help top to bottom. Then mark left to right every 3 decisions.
You have 3 triple zz All 3 will have a different hit and miss pattern as you fill it in. You have single zz and two double zz. xxxooo, xoxo, xxoo, by starting one later in the pattern it insures a different hit or miss pattern. Today for instance I had a strong follow in the first column for a while repeating the hits when they hit. And near the end of my play the last double z col only had single hits for a while...So play it to miss. I try to get every series done by two after line. Two decisions. One unit bet second attempt one unit unless i'm feeling it with what I see then two......

You can trend the columns in two sets of three...... Both follow the last.... strong hit pattern... weak hit pattern.... etc. etc......
Less than 20 minutes today for 5 units was'nt feeling the next bet to make 6 and was right it missed. Still have to use your gut....