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Craps When you cannot beat the casinos, beat the players!

Discussion in 'Craps Forum' started by Mark V, Jul 28, 2015.

  1. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    My scanning some of the post on the crapsforum.com reviles that DI's are not beating the casinos. I have found that when true Advantage players really are winning, they don't mind the critics or the nay-sayers at all. In fact they say, "come play with me and I will show you how I do it". They laugh all the way to the bank.

    Logic would say that if there 'The Captain' who beat craps in Atlantic City, then there would be far more like him in Las Vegas that has far more casinos and craps tables than AC ever had.

    Yet, when no other person can be found who was as successful as 'The Captain' then logic would conclude that:
    A: The Captain cheated, and all his perceived luck and skills was from cheating, or
    B: The Captain never existed, and is a fictional creation used to inspire and tell "tall tales" with.

    If dice influence/control actually existed to the point of giving a player the advantage, the casinos would take drastic steps to curtail that. Blackjack is a great example of how the casinos quickly back off players who vary their bet, they changed the payouts and rules to make card counting less profitable, only allow 70% shoe penetration or less, and introduced continual shufflers. Even still, they sweat this game and pit bosses are ever vigilant for the quick jump up in bet sizes by a player.

    If the casinos felt threatened with craps, then we all be shooting from a horn (dice in a cup) or like in some European casinos the dealers toss the dice. I have also seen prototypes of Dice Towers much like a pachinko machine where the dealers push a button and two dice will fall though a series of platforms and pins to tumble and spin down to the bottom where they come falling out.

    Clearly, the casinos do not feel threatened at all with the current play of craps. My assumption is that the diamond backwall is sufficient to ensure that the dice are randomized.

    When players cannot beat the casinos, they will then turn on the fellow players for the source of their income.

    It is my conclusion that a few of these 'dice clubs' out there that claim they can teach you to beat the game of craps with specialized dice rolling methods, This appears to be nothing more than a ruse get hopeful and aspiring gamblers to pay for seminars, classes and personal training. My own observation is that those who profit from such seminars are not profiting at all from playing craps and using the techniques they profess give the player the advantage. Rather, it has been noted that some of these Dice seminar instructors can be found playing slots rather than craps.

    I am not claiming that all Dice Clubs are bad. Some actually help players develop a very sound and strategic betting technique and play styles that will greatly help them. Dice clubs can also help a person develop and retain discipline of play as well as sharing of information as to play conditions, promotions and other opportunities that may invite lucrative ventures.

    Now, tossing the dice in an eloquent way does show that you have put time and sincerity in to the game. The respect gained may be more for your earnest commitment to the game, rather than any success with dice throwing. Furthermore, I personally like watching a skilled toss being deployed. It is like watching ballet, and adds to further enjoyment of the game, and is far better than the clumsy sporadic tosses that go crashing though the chips on the table.

    True Advantage Play with craps comes from:
    - Promotions that rebate your losses,
    - Match Play coupons,
    - Free chips,
    - Bonus Player club points

    This combined with optimal play can give a player the true advantage with craps.
     
  2. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    Mark V, don't know who you are or where you came From, But YOU , My Friend, Speak the Truth. These guys do not understand that there is No such thing as an Advantage Player in Craps. They get Confused, Because they Have Mastered a "Toss". NOT THE MASTERING OF FAVORABLE RESULTS FROM THE MASTERED TOSS!!! Think about it..... If One TRULY had an advantage over the Casino, they'd Press their Bets instead of Regressing, RIGHT? I Mean, Really, if I had a Verified edge, I'd EVER worry about the Hand Ending Seven Out Coming for AT LEAST the first 10-12 Tosses within a Hand.

    Sure, I believe there are skilled shooters, but They DEFINITELY NEVER have an advantage over the
     
    Mark V likes this.
  3. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    Mark V
    You seem to give honest answers so I will ask this regarding your comments about APs and craps
    About 10 years ago with Harrahs, my main game was craps.(i have since moved on to sports and hold em). I was a diamond card holder. I got free rooms(although I have a second home in sparks nevada) free meals, ocassionally a 10 or 20 dollar match play coupon. Inever received free chips or rebate on losses. I bought in every weekend with 1k.

    If I was an AP, living nearby, the free room although possibly worth 100 dollars each night(fri and sat) is worthless for me...it does not add a penny to my bank account. The 50 dollars for meals on the weekend saves me actually 20 dollars max for me and my wife in actual food savings of what we would actually spend if we were cooking at home. And the 20 dollar match play, is worth 20 dollars if I win the bet. So for the weekend, I would get 2 nights, 50 in food comps ans 20 match play(270 worth in comps)....Its only worth 40 dollars to me in real money.

    You said full time AP players would also live near casinos......so I would think they calculate their real monetary savings from comps and free play as I have. Is that correct?? Or do they count the full 270 dollars in comps, and if they lose 270 in cash at the table...then they say "they broke even".???
    I have a real problem with that type of accounting.

    Just wondering what your opinion is of that.
     
  4. superrick

    superrick Active Member Founding Member

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    For most guys that live around casinos, the comps they get are useless. You don't need a free room, you end up giving them away. You don't need a free meal and the free play they give you is only to entice you into coming in a playing.

    Some of these casino give you free bets that you have to use on a weekend if you're a so-called DI most likely you do not play on the weekends!

    Now for the rest of the junk that they give out, it's just cheap junk that you can buy at the dollar store!

    Crap players get squat for comps! On the other hand, if your wife is into playing slots she will get all kind of comps! Most so-called DI's, when they come into Vegas, use their wife's comps for the rooms they stay in.

    The first thing I did when we moved to the Vegas area was to buy a slot machine so my wife would know that she couldn't win playing one! It worked and she does not go to the casinos!

    I do not want the casinos knowing who I am, so I do not use players cards. Although I do have them from when we used to come to Vegas a few times a year. Those casinos put me in their computers without me giving them a card. So I do get free play in the mail and will use a comp meal.

    I tell everybody to read “Whale hunt in the desert,” to see what really happens to players that are getting all of those comps that are high rollers.

    I want to be able to pick-up my chips and leave anytime I want to, when you are playing for comps you are playing too long!

    I do get a kick out of the players that are picking up their free wine when they are giving it out in the local casinos, that are carrying out a case at a time, big time losers on the slot machines!

    Now on the local scene, you have the video poker players, that add their prize money and cars that they can win in one of the many promotions that the casinos put on. If you're a craps player you can not compete for those promotions. The video poker players will have hundreds of entries to every one or two of yours.
     
    $nakeEye$ and Mark V like this.
  5. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    I agree with you superrick. When you live near a casino, the comps are useless as far as inflating your bank account. And after all..isnt thats what matters in the long run? The food saves you a little if you live nearby and could eat at home.
    The room can actually cost you money, in the situation where you are fatigued so you go home....but wait..you have a room, so instead of the 30 min drive home, you go up to the room, take a nap for an hour and go downstairs at 1 am. And since the house has the advantage....over time....you will lose more than gain each time that situation occurs. Yes you cold go down at 1 am and play craps and win 1000 in which case the room was worth 1000 to you. But in the long run, the room is meant to get you back to the tables rather than have you go home for the night. You are right about getting a win and going home.
    I know that the comps are not conducive to increasing your bank account in the long run i TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU.

    hOwever I wonder how APs do the accounting. Do they fool themselves into thinking that if they lost 270.00 at the craps table, but got 250 in rooms and meals..then they only lost 20 dollars?
    Or if they got a suite worth 250a night for 2 nights,,,,and 100 dollars at the steak house.......that if they lost 600 at the tables...they broke even?

    Even if they live far away, and get rooms worth 1000 for a week.......and they lose 1000....is it even? even though they could get a nice 50 dollar a night room at an off strip hotel like The Orleans(my fave). Are they really saving 1000 from their bank account.....nope. They are saving 350.
     
  6. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    LarryS

    I do see your point, in that as a local who is not taking advantage of the free rooms and meals you might be getting screwed here. Perhaps you should consider taking what the free rooms and meals even if you only live a few miles away. Many local Las Vegans to just that, stay at on The Strip even though they may have a condo only 20 minutes away. Bring the kids too, they can swim!

    It is all about lifestyle as I see it. Some just like the pampering they receive, and the glitz's and the glamour that Las Vegas can be. When I stayed two weeks at the Red Rock Resort, I meet lots of locals who where also staying there too. They simply wanted out of the heat, a place for the kids to swim and have fun, and of course with the free rooms and meals they sort of had a mini-vacation close to home.

    As for pure gambling goes.... There are casinos that don't have a hotel such as Jokers Wild in Henderson. I noticed that such casinos offer more cash prizes, more meals, and comps that have a practical value to them and not just the cheap dollar tree sort trash that some casinos/hotels offer.

    Anyway, the comps I receive for what otherwise I would normally pay for I do count towards my win/loss totals for the day.
     
  7. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    There are some casinos I find that based on your zip code will give comps accordingly. For example a non local zip gets free room, while a local will get 100 dollars at the steak house.
    Wife and I have stayed at the hotel when offered room, and eaten at the steak house, and used the free extra comp points given for weekend deals to pay for extra food or a gift at the giftshop.
    All nice things, but also all things that I cant put into my bank account. I cant pay an electric bill with a free 100 dollar steak dinner, or a free room.

    When I was a diamond Harrahs member I got a free week at Rio in an upgraded suite, going rate 1200 dollars. I usually spend 350 for the room at The Orleans. The 1200 room was worth 350 to my bank account. Yet I am sure there are folks out there who would lose 1000 at the tables and claim they were 200 ahead. If a business was 200 ahead like that every week...it would be bankrupt.
     

  8. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Tabletop

    The house edge computed with Craps is based on a single unpressed bet winning or losing. Optimal Structured play often, that involves an aggressive pressing method actually has the advantage, though not by much.

    My favorite method is a pressing Come Betting method.
    second favorite is Pressing a Delayed Come bet (placing the number that got rolled)
    Third is to bet the 6 and 8
    forth is to bet the insides
    Fifth is to bet across.

    I don't bet:
    C and E
    Craps Check
    Hard Ways (unless I make them for the crew as toke bets)
    Horns
    Hop bets
    whirl
    field

    I also don't bet on every player, I only bet on winners!

    I also play a Dark Side pressing method as well. This can be quite lucrative at some casinos where the dice are known to be cold.

    If DI (Dice Influence) works 20% of the time then (as many shooter suspect) I may gain a fraction of one percent advantage more. As a player we take whatever advantage we can.
     
  9. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    Mark V, I agree with your style of Play Whole Heartedly. HOWEVER, I am currently looking at a VERY aggressive Method of Play. VDC uses the Play & seems to have a Decent amount of Success with it. The Play is NOT for the "Faint Of Heart". It involves Placing all of the Numbers (As an Example) for $180 Across (Including the Point). You Full Press Every hit for 15 Hits(I know, I know, that takes a HELL of a shooter to pull it off), & on the 16th Roll, you regress everything down to $54 across & let the Hand play out(I would assume "Same Bet", Same Bet, for the Duration). Maybe VDC can chime in on the Play as I Certainly don't want to reveal the Play improperly.

    The way that VDC explained it is that you have to look at the $360 as a "Well if I don't Get it Back, No Big Deal" Bet, & shoot for the moon! He also stated that if you're not tossing 20 roll hands at least 20% of the time, the Strategy is not for you. Now, I'm not one to Profess Doubt, but Tossing 20 roll Hands 20% of the Time CONSISTENTLY is some Pretty STRONG Tossing, wouldn't You Say? I will agree that DI'ng works about 20% of the Time(Maybe a little less), but Let's Define the word "Works". Does "It Works 20% of the Time" constitute 20 Roll Hands? I think you can see where I'm going with This!!! Would NOT a Roll hand Fall into the "It Works" Category?
     
  10. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    I'm Sorry, My Post should Have Read..... You'd have to look at the $180 as a "Well if I don't Get it Back, No Big Deal Bet" Not $360!!
     
  11. Mark V

    Mark V Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Well, 180 across is not that uncommon, full press for 15 rolls, then come down to table minimum is quite interesting. The volatility of this method is near insane, so it will require a large bankroll to survive it. However, I can see how this can be very profitable with good dice.

    I personally would have to track the table for quite some time to determine if the dice are fair before committing to this sort of method. I can only guess you guys have done that. If not, you can could be in for a rude awakening as the Ice Dice take your bankroll.
     
  12. Tabletop

    Tabletop Member Lineage to Founders

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    FIFTEEN Box Number hits is asking for an Awful lot, even if you're Playing with Fair dice. From a Sheer mathematical standpoint, its a "No Brainer" if you can toss a 20 roll Hand 1/5th of the Time. Even if you were to PSO four Consecutive Hands, & you hit the Fifteen Box Numbers on the Fifth Hand, there's still a large Profit Margin. Now, some of these DI's live & Die by Their "Toss". Certainly Nothing wrong with Believing in Yourself if you're Playing with "Fair" Dice. Ten Hits & Regress sounds more "Doable" for Myself, so I'd probably go THAT route. Bankroll is VERY important when trying to implement this type of Betting Strategy! Knowing that Dice Do NOT stay "On Axis", & that DI'ng is very Marginal, It is a VERY Risky bet for even the Very Best Of Shooters.

    I look at it this Way: The vast Majority of DI's Spread out to Numbers as the Hand Develops. Very Rarely do the Top DI's start a Hand with more than three Numbers Bet. THAT Pretty much tells the whole story. The Influence that SOME of these Guys think they Possess, Simply Isn't There! Most are "Mislead", & they "Misjudge" according to the "Beauty" of their Toss/s. Unfortunately, a Beautiful Looking toss Can, & WILL Get you "Dead Broke". You have to believe in Yourself(Your ability to Control your Body Movement), & your Toss, but you still MUST remain cognizant to the Fact that RANDOMNESS Trumps MOST influenced Tosses, No Matter How skilled you THINK you are!
     
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