Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

Hi gang.

I just became aware of this site in the past couple days (although I apparently I signed up a year ago, and don't remember) and have read through all the comments of the last 3 months regarding actions at WoV involving my situation. I don't anticipate being a regular member here as this kind of thing really isn't my cup of tea, but I did want to pop in and thank some of you for comments of support involving Mike's handling of my situation. I do realize any comments of support are less about support of me and more about trashing Mike, but that's ok, I still appreciate the support.

I do have a question to start off. I get that there is a strong dislike for Mike (that's basically what this site is about), but why is everyone that participates at WoV a bad guy, in your guy's book? I personally enjoyed some of the members and that is why I participated there. Just because I think Mike's handling of my incident and some others are incredible weak and unprofessional, doesn't cause me to dislike everyone associated with the site. That's just me I guess. :/

Since it was Mike himself that directed me to this site, just days ago when I was communicating privately with him, it is pretty evident that he does not care the least what others think of him, including you guys, including myself and including the members of WoV. He is an ego-manic who's only concern is himself. In the 3 months since he banned me, much as been written by many, many members at WoV, expressing their concern and disapproval of Mike's handling of my situation. Not once has Mike bothers to address any of those concerns. Shows just how much respect he has for the current members there.

As for Mr Chan and Zuga of Latest Casino Bonuses, I suspect they don't care much about the contents and workings of the message board. They are only interested in traffic from the site drawing players to LCB. But they also recently purchased BJ21 and both BJ21 and WoV gets a lot of the traffic from the message board portions of the sites. Since meany of the members at WoV are questioning Mikes integrity and honesty and fairness in handling of a number of situations, I would think that a concern for a company who's whole business is reliant on customers feeling comfortable with their honesty and integrity. To have the front man out their turning members off with his lack of integrity and honesty, seems counter-productive to me. But what do I know, I am not in the on-line casino business and Josh Chan seems to know what he is doing based on his success rate.

I will share a recent development that will amuse you anti-Shack folks. This will piss Shackleford off, because he used a made up rule that nobody knew of about talking about contents of private messages, as reasoning for banning me and also as recently as this week threatened me with talking about things discussed in private messages. I suppose this is a big deal to Mike, because he is so completely two face and very often says one thing in private while stating the opposite position publicly. So he doesn't want people divulging how two faced and untruthful he is.

So, I have been in discussion with Mike in recent days and weeks concerning my return to WoV, but in the end I decided I want no part of Mike or WoV under his guidance. He wanted me to make a formal apology to Qfit (Norm Wattenberg) for comments I made on other sites. The final thing that really turned me off to this possible return was Mike stating that he had contacted Norm (Qfit) numerous times and Norm had not agreed to this arrangement. I didn't even realize Norm was a part of the discussions. I guess I just failed to realize that Norm Wattenberger (Qfit) apparently controls WoV, a site for which he did not participate at for 5 year and 9 months until he returned a few months ago for the sole purpose of getting me banned because he does not like my opinion of him or his site. And he does not intend on participating going forward. On top of that Wattenberger has publicly stated on his own site a while back that he did not participate at WoV because he had trust concerns over Mike's relationship with Venetian. And when LCB bought WoV, Wattenberger stated he had trust issues with an online casino owning the site. But yet some how he wields great influence over Mike and the site. Perplexing???

I personally am fine. I have had enough of message board sites. For a number of years now, I have shared my experiences as a mid-level professional card counter, in the hopes that a few others many benefit from my experiences just as others did for me a decade ago. Mostly what I have gotten back for it is grief, although I have established a small network of players that I network with regularly for which I value a great deal.

I think I have paid it back adequately enough and am ready to move on from these sites which all have a high degree of dysfunction, inflated ego, and politics and cronyism to them. These guys like Shackleford and Wattenberger that run these sites seem to get caught up in their own power trip and lose sight that the real value of any site dealing with advantage play is the AP members who share their success, stories, experiences and strategies. Eventually egos conflict and they start driving away the very members who are the main value of the site and the sites always decline until they cease to exist, replaced by a similar site, who vows not to make the same mistakes.

Again, I wish to that you for your support. Also knowing that many members of WoV read this site (if not participate), I want to take the opportunity to thank many members there for their on-going support. A couple of the guys Ron C, among them, but others as well, have gone to great lengths to renew discussion of the topic every couple weeks. I don't know exactly how much of that is on my behalf and how much is just a feeling that an injustice was done, but either way, I am overwhelmed that they care enough and appreciated my contributions enough to give such a level of support. A sincere thank you to all.

And finally a shout out and thank you for your support to my buddy, Mickey Crimm. You never have to wonder just what Mickey is thinking.....he tells you in no uncertain terms. And when he gets a little ”firewater” in him, he tells you in even less uncertain terms! To say Mickey is a unique character in the world of gambling/advantage play, is to say the grand canyon is a hole in the ground. Mickey is most entertaining but also chalk full of knowledge concerning machine play that few, if any can match. I know Mickey is a handful for any website moderator/administrator with his habit of late night, “fueled up”, colorful posting, but any site he is involved in would do well to make some exceptions for him. His contributions are that powerful.

Thank you for the opportunity to share a few thoughts.

 

Wow! Great post, KewlJ. Very fair and thoughtful.

Egomaniac does not begin to scratch the surface when it comes to that slime ball. I'll leave it at that for now because I do want to answer your question.

I have said on numerous occasions that there are good people over there but the good ones are being systematically eliminated. You mentioned RonC for one. He has changed and now refuses to drink the Kool Aid. Good for him. That may put a target on his back but good for him.

Good members don't call for the suspension of others. They don't flag posts. They don't threaten others. It goes on and on contributing to the site's decline. And the moderation. Wow. I'll leave that for another time.

 

Since you brought up the recent flagging incident, I would like to express my thought on that. Since I had already been banned at the time of this incident, I have not had the opportunity to discuss it.

Mike's handling of this incident was 100% wrong. Axelwolf and other AP's that intended to take advantage of this promotion had every right to flag the post in the hopes of keeping this promotion less publicized.

During my time on various AP/gambling message boards there have been numerous instances of promos that afforded AP opportunities, being canceled, downgraded or changed when the promo began receiving “chatter" on various AP/gambling message boards. Sometimes management does not realize how strong some of these promos have the potential to be until they read about it on the message boards....and THEY DO READ THE MESSAGE BOARDS. Kudos to the Plaza for sticking with the promo, although they undoubtedly made some of the higher limit machines ineligible as a downgrade.

The defense that this promo was publicized on numerous sites like Las Vegas Advisor is complete crap as a defense. There is a huge difference in referencing the promotion, and spelling out in meticulous detail how to maximize opportunity against such a promotion. To state something is worth XXXX amount per hour is just such a horrendous act, it makes you question who's side this guy is even on.

It isn't a question of informing members of the best way to gamble as Wizard defends. To the extent he went to it is just sabotage to the AP community. And then to suspend AP's who acted in their best interest on top of that....again, it just makes you wonder where this guy's interest REALLY lies.

I would NOT have been forgiving as Axelwolf, Djatc and some of the others were regardless of any fond feelings for Mike. And the worse part is he still doesn't believe his actions were harmful, and likely he will do it again.

 

Hey, KJ. Good to hear from you. Thanks for the kind words. I don't have a problem with my 86'ing off of WoV. I think I had just about run my course there under the established rules. I wanted to get off the site before I got the ban hammer and even expressed it there but was asked by other members to stay. Although they were good intentioned I shouldn't have listened to them.

I think I still have good friends there but I also have my own way of seeing things. I never liked the "Suspension List" or as Mike calls it "the public shaming list." And while Mike has a rule about insulting current members, he gives free gratis to insult former members all you want--and I think that is what has led to a bunch of former members ganging up on another gambling board and critiquing the Wizard.

This goes back a lot of years, long before WoV. I knew there was something up with Mike even back then. My only experience in blackjack is the video version. There were a couple of exploitable versions back in the day. IGT had a game that came in at 100.03%. It was single deck first hand off the top every time. Since blackjack has such low variance compared to video poker it was exploitable when you found strong cashback. I used single deck composition strategy. It was like payday every day.

But there was a rule in the game I knew nothing about. It was called "dealer stands on six cards." Sometimes I would stand on 16 and would win the hand when the dealer made a six-card 15, and other times I would lose the hand when I made a 15 and the dealer would make a six-card 16. I went over the WOO site and couldn't find anything about the rule.

At that time Mike had the "Ask the Wizard" column on WOO. So I explained the rule to him in detail and asked him if the rule helped or harmed the player. I signed off as "Mickey in Reno." In his next Ask the Wizard column, Mike wrote "Mickey in Reno wants to know what the payback percentage in video blackjack is. The answer is it depends on the rules."

That was not the question I asked him. I wasn't the only one in Reno playing the game. And I wasn't the only one following the Ask the Wizard column. They all knew who Mickey in Reno was. I took some ribbing from them for asking such a dumb question. Then a couple of weeks later guess what pops up in the Wizard of Odds rules chart for blackjack--dealer stands on six cards. Mike gave the add-on as +0.00.

Well, I finally got the information from him. But he made me look like an idiot in the process. And he took full credit for coming up with the rule.

 

A few thoughts on the flagging incident. I'll preface my comments by quoting the ODD wizard himself. Manboy said...."What I speculate happened is selfish advantage players teamed up to flag it off the site". Looks like manboy doesn't agree with the selfish (his words) flaggers who think they can censor a post...shut someone up. How do you like it now, flaggers? You don't matter either. So it's okay to be the DICKtator as long as the DICKtator is on the "right side"?

Now I can sympathize with these poor wannabe slot "pros" trying to eke out the price of their next meal. It must be a very frustrating, lonely and stressful life. How dare granny sit at YOUR machine. (Little Axel - the water I bought from you on the bridge was warmer than I expected. Please stock that cooler with more ice.)

Darkoz is a straight shooter. He didn't deserve the selfish, rotten treatment that he got. No excuse for that. Key word selfish...manboy's word. Take it up with him. What's that? You don't have the guts. We understand.

Was there an alternative to a flag by the high and not so mighty? Of course there was. Anyone with basic communication skills (sorry Axel) could figure it out.

Those concerned, and again I sympathize, could have sent darkoz a PM, could have contacted a mod or simply could have posted directly in the thread asking darkoz to delete sensitive information. Darkoz is not the bad guy....and WOV is not an AP site. Not by any sense of the imagination. Let that sink in.....NOT AN AP SITE.

Someone ask again why that board is dying. Here's one tiny example of it's dysfunction. A 2 1/2 year long post, 11 pages long discussing the number one question on everyone's mind. Is the Miata a gay car? And you people want to be taken seriously? Puleeze.

 

Funny...the gang at WoV doesn't believe....or want to believe that it was actually me that posted the above remarks. This surprises me as I have been told I have a very distinct writing style. Unfortunately, gamblingforums only allows for a 5 minute window to edit mistakes and that is way to short a period for me, as I tend to make a ton of spelling/gambling mistakes, so I apologize to all that has to endure that. lol Also I have used the same avatar photo on all sites that have such a feature. But anyone that feels the need to be assured, feel free to email me a [email protected] (hope email isn't a violation)

 

This is hilarious. They're over there betting on whether it was really KewlJ who posted here. Little Axel says "I'll take that bet". He just heard the word bet and his compulsion took over.

They so want it to be an imposter. If it's the real KewlJ that would mean that he has stood up to manboy....that he's not intimidated by that little man or the other one who got him banned. A great feeling that most munchkins will never know and can only imagine.

So keep it up, guys. You can get a lot of mileage on this. Just don't ignore the Miata thread. What would the world do if that went away? Keep acting like little girls....bragging about flagging posts....bragging about asking for suspensions.

And listen to that guy from Georgia. He makes more sense than the rest of you combined....and he has the hots for beached whale.

 

I love this narrative that Norm Wattenberger has successfully gotten out there that I have been banned by many different sites. This is one of several outright lies that Wattenberger continues to use in an attempt to discredit me. The fact is that I have been banned at 2 sites.....Wattenbergers site and now Wizards....at Norm's demand (cronyism). Wattenberger has unsuccessfully attempted to get me banned 2 other sites that I participated on, BJ21 and 2 + 2 poker, where I only occasionally chime in on blackjack topics.

At BJ21, Norm tried to get Al Rogers who ran the site (may have changed since the sale, I don't know) to ban me, but Al Rogers would have no part of it. As a matter of fact, Al, specifically contacted me to remind me that I continue to be welcome at BJ21 to post whatever I like.

As a further attempt to discredit me, Norm also likes to make sure that everyone knows about the fake death incident at blackjackinfo years ago. As obvious by Axelwolf's comments, he has succeeded there too.

For anyone that may not know, years ago on blackjackinfo, shortly after I moved to Vegas, I was robbed at gunpoint outside my highrise condo building, just off the strip. The gunman made a couple specific comments that let me know, this was not a random event, but that he had targeted me from comments made at BJinfo. I was young and stupid (as opposed to now middle-aged and stupid) and had made some posts that were not smart, especially concerning the purchase of my condo. I guess in my excitement, I didn't consider the consequences of posting too much info about myself.

So being young and fearful of additional similar robberies, I decided to drop off the site and thought if it was known that I had passed away, it might provide some protection from future situations. It was a stupid idea that I didn't think through. I never imagined the uproar that it would cause as members of that site, called police, the coroners office and came to the office of my highrise (more evidence of how careless I had been) trying to find out what happened.

Anyway, I never ran from that mistake. At sites that I posted on, I continued to use the same (or very similar) handle. I didn't run and hide and change to a new handle as I could have. I took responsibility owned that stupid and embarrassing mistake and plan. I have long since moved on from it and most other members of different sites that have known be since back then have moved on from it. It is only brought up now by someone like Norm who is out to discredit me.

And that is the kind of thing I mentioned in my earlier post. The blackjack/AP community is severely dysfunctional. There are huge egos. Everything is a big pissing match. Instead of banning together against a common foe (casino), often we are at each other's throats. I guess I am at fault there too. But I am done with it. Done with the egos, and feuds and cronyism like wizard just exercised. There is a reason most successful AP's don't participate much on these various forums. And those that do, do so very sparingly....sharing very little, mostly just looking for tidbits of info about conditions or promos.

 

@Mickey Crimm: My only regret is that our paths didn't cross earlier on some site so that I could have spent more time not only picking up a few things from you but hearing all your stories and experiences, and boy do you have some fascinating ones. THAT is one of my favorite parts of interacting with different AP's. While you and I are in different world as far as the AP spectrum, with you being a top "machine player", while I concentrate on the age old elementary technique of card counting I just love hearing your stories of both success and difficult times.

Also while I know you don't have much interest in BJ, your post earlier in this thread, clearly showed you understand my concerns over the frauds on the blackjack site making outrageous claims, like 500% increase in results, which started the whole feud that has lead to this point for me.

As AP's most of us have a pretty accurate bullshit detector. I feel like we have not only a right, but a responsibility to call out bullshit claims that are misleading and can be damaging to those that believe and follow. Some AP's do this more than others. AxelWolf is quick to call out nonsensical claims on wizards site. I am actually a little more reserved. I generally don't respond to members that are dishing nonsense as long as they aren't hurting anyone. If they want to build themselves up on the internet with fantastical claims...so be it. I figure most members will eventually figure out who knows what they are talking about and who is just talking. Usually the BSer will hang themselves.

But when I see these some completely phony person spewing BS that is having an influence, especially with the newer players, I am compelled to speak up. That's what I and two other known professional players did on Norm's blackjack site that lead to this current situation. It was out of character for me and the other two professional players to question (some would say attack) someone's credibility as we did, but THAT should tell you something right there. These frauds claims were and continue to be so outrageous and egregious that we all felt forced to speak up.

 

KJ
NICE TO HEAR THE INITIAL POST AND FOLLOW UP
however...A few comments
1- I generally just speak for myself, however I dont think the characterization that the 3 main posters here(me,freddy, and LP9) generalize about "everyone" at Wov. Usually very specific people are referenced. (from here on I will go back to speaking for myself). I am sure there are folks that post there that have no idea whats going on as far as punishment of others.
But for those that do.....very few left that arent petrified to speak up. I was nuked for no reason given, but it seems I was on the wrong side of an opinion. I, like others such as B9, BB1 spoke up on behalf of out neighbors and for that reason we are gone. And as people like us who speak up for out neighbors when there is poor customer service are terminated, it leaves the rest who quiver in their shorts and just watch in silence as others are poorly treated. Many before you KJ, have been poorly treated and people sat in silence because they didnt like the views of that person. But then one day a favorite of theirs is treated poorly(KewlJ) and some became upset. Well where were these folks before? We know...if the neighbor is on the worng side of a issue....who cares if they are treated poorly. Well now someone like yourself gets treated poorly and they have no standing to complain. They sat on their asses so many times before that now the people in charge are flushed with power. Where were you KewlJ when your neighbors were being mistreated? I dont know the answer to that because I have no idea if you voiced displeasure via PM. But if you sat silent...then dont be surprised that your number eventually came up.
2-I am glad you didnt jump through hoops to go back. You do have backbone and seem to keep the importance of a message board in context. Your self respect in tact. Bravo.
3- Of course the wiz doesnt care what we say here. That is not a headline to us. I have said all along, that he has no skin in the game and has no reason to grow the business by providing proper customer service. Wov is a business that depends on traffic to sell advertising. It always has been. Micaelbluejay has stated that at one point the site was pulling in 6 figures. And in small part the people who donate their time and expertise help contribute to the numbers that command the advertising fees. We are customers of a business...not guests in "mikes home".
If the wiz manboy got fired today he would be just fine. If the mods got let go today, they would be just fine. And there lies the problem. A bunch of people in charge of customer service that have no incentive to give proper customer service. They can make up rules on the fly, adjust punishments based on what side of the issue one is on, give special treatment to friends to the detriment of the business(as in your case). They each have their own mental issues, and will use the punishment they have access to give, as a salve for their own emotional problems.
Heck the manboy wiz actually stated that he suspends when he is in a bad mood. It infers that it makes his mood better.
So this is the toxic environment that Zuga has allowed to continue to exist. Someone was baited into a suspension because he simply asked where you were. No waiting to see if it was a sincere question....nope just a bait and suspension.

Before I was banned, I was starting to present the concept that WOV is a business that should value its customers rather than seek to punish them. However punishment seems to be what the remaining people enjoy as long as its administered to others, and the "others" are not ones they like to read.

The life blood of any business revolves around customer retention. What good is acquiring customers if you cant retain them. However wov WILL REMAIN IN DECLINE UNTIL SOMEONE ADMITS THAT IT IS A BUSINESS......and common business practices as far as customer service should prevail. Its not fucking mikes living rooms as people retort whenever there is a critique of customer serice management .

 

Hello old WOV members
Miss your posts KJ.
This thread is pretty entertaining.
Keep it up. Love the humor and sarcasm posts.
I detect some anger. Maybe justified to a certain extant, maybe not.
Chill and take a bong hit
Life is short
Its just the internet.
I found the comments about me hilarious.
For what its worth, I'm not a secret mod
Is B9 here?
Do you all check out DT? I post more there.
If you all enjoy flame wars, here is one I am involved in that would make anything going on over at WOV look like a small matchstick

https://whyweprotest.net/threads/mark-bunker-scammer-or-salt-of-the-earth-good-guy.120997/

 

Just wanted to add, that flame war thread, brutal because no suspensions
Yup, a board that does not suspend
Really brutal posts get down voted and hidden, but just have to click and its unhidden and usually pretty brutal

 

First off it's not a they, it's probably one person with multiple accounts(sock puppets) at least 3 of the agitators. There's a few signs this is the case. Can someone confirm this was infact KJ?>>>

as per little axelwolf at wov

seems axelwolf soiled himself. Another person who knows nothing. He should notify the admin here that freddy, me, and LP9 are the same person. The admin here is very very good at rooting out those types of issues.
He did it once when I suspected an issue with a screen name....and he did it very quickly

Go ahead little axel.....turn us in. you are already registered here...so just take 30 seconds and notify the admin.

dont just throw stones from a distance....you are not banned from this site.

And all the rest that have issues....be men and post here. Post specifics that your disagree with.

Its so easy to stay over there and give your critique......hiding under mommy's dress

 

I don't know what's sadder, another forum that doesn't do anything but talk about this forum, or this forum talking about another forum that does nothing but talk about this forum.>>>>per mcallister on wov

they just went through 40-50 posts as real life detectives discussing if its really KJ posting here. So yeah. the idiots over there that complain that we should get a life while spending 6 pages discussing the real identity of the KJ post here are hypocrites

 

For many...yes it's just a message board and just the internet and they are an anonymous name. But for some of us professional type players, we are real people that are part of and known, throughout what is the AP/Blackjack/gaming community. Sites like WoV, Qfit's site, BJ21 and too a lesser extent a couple smaller sites also make up this 'community' and many of the same professional players participate on numerous sites throughout the community.

There are some social parties and meetings associated with this community through some of the different sites (an example would be the green chip parties at BJ21). People get together form teams and partnerships and networking groups. So one's reputation is of the utmost importance in this community. Someone smearing your name and reputation, can actually have an effect on a professional player's career and the ability to form teams and partnerships.

I personally am very selective about whom I meet and I already have formed my partnerships within my close circle of friends and housemates, so I do much less of that than others. In my own case, I have lost someone in my networking group, that I considered a friend because of all this.

 

Joined because of your posts. Many of us miss you and Mickey at WOV. I only speak for myself and can only make decisions based on what I read in a PUBLIC forum. But you were always friendly to me as was Mickey. I learned from both of you, along with others at WOV, for that I am a better gambler.

As for the stuff over here, I always thought Larry, 1bb & ahigh came off as assholes, and I believe Mike has (had) the right to do whatever he wanted with his forum. Like any business owner can within the law. And customers have the right to not patronize that business and he alone will succeed or suffer for it. The same right you guys have to complain about it.

But that all changed when Joshua bought it. If he doesn't care, that tells us a lot about what he sees as the value of the forum. If it brings hits, he wins, and why should he care if it does what he feels is a reasonable rate of return? All that matters in his world. Bigger fish to worry about. As for those busting on Zuga, really? Sure he is judged on results by JC as he should be. Somehow I don't think he loses dinner on what Buzz does.

 

And if nothing else, your bringing traffic over here, benefiting someone hopefully.

 

KEWLJ:

Obviously you know that you are missed by many members at WoV, and just as obviously it is clear that you are not posting there.

So why not start a thread here, call it "KEWLJ," the avowed purpose of which is for your supporters and you to converse?

This gnashing of teeth and pulling of hair by the WoVers who absolutely, positively have to interact with you must stop: they are embarrassing themselves, much as a love lorn teen experiencing his first breakup often acts.

You're one popular dude.

 

a cogent well backed thoguht.

This is why Wov is losing member views daily at about a 20 percent clip. Just look at the bottom of the page and compare to the numbers that used to be posted there at the end of the day.

"assholes" are ok to fuck with and ban. Well then maybe the wiz thought KewlJ was an "asshole". If businesses threw all "assholes" out of their establishments...they would be a failing venture.

One mans "asshole" is another mans great poster. It all depends on what side of an issue you are on.

It seems people like you want to rid boards of your declared "assholes". That works fine until someone in power deems you to be an asshole.

Maybe based on your thread content I deem you to be an "asshole"....does that mean I would want you banned? Nope....I have the ability to skip over your threads, or block your posts.

I thought people over at wov were smart enough to figure that out.

 

Boz, terapined, MrV, I appreciate your kind words and for you guys taking the time to pop in here to share those kind words. Well MrV is a semi regular here I guess.

Boz, I appreciate your support and kind words on WoV and the 'other' site as well. I miss many folks at WoV. WoV was the only site where I let my hair down a little and participated in other topic besides BJ, such as politics, sports and anything Vegas, which I really enjoyed. Sadly Qfit and Mike took all that away from me, because Qfit can't handle someone having a negative opinion of him and his site and Mike caved to Qfit's bully/crybaby tactics. I am not sure who of the two of them it is a worse refection of.