Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

Ok, fair enough as far as the appearance of needing someone to pave the way.

Although the appearance of that is not absurdly out of the question

 

Thanks, KewlJ!

 

Ok Mission...I understand your stance is that you will speak of your specific actions in the company that you work for, but not general management. Ok fair enough. However your behavior and decisions are exhibited in the context of the culture that is layed out by your boss....wiz. Although he may not be your real boss now(or maybe he is) with the new owners......he acts like the main oversee-er still ,so I consider his the "boss" in charge of customer service.

So here is a softball one to start.

How is it that you as well as others find insults, even insults as mild as calling somone "genius"a punishable action, yet you find posting a dumb blonde joke about dumb bllondes thinking the moon is closer than a city on earth because you can see the moon and not the city perfectly un-actionable. You didnt self ban yourself and your fellow mods didnt think it was actionable.

Is mocking a group of people like dumb blondes, dumb pollocks, cheap jews....via jokes not as insulting as calling someone "genius" or even "dummy"


I will keep the discourse on one topic so it doesnt get cluttered with multiple questions. There is no need to squeeze everything into one post

 

There it is...humans make mistakes. Too bad they can't all be adults and admit when they do. I get it ...wouldn't want to tarnish the dictator reputation.

 

LarryS,

First of all, let me say that I appreciate your, 'One matter at a time,' approach. Furthermore, in the event that I go several hours or even a few days without responding, please do not interpret that as me necessarily ignoring anyone or refusing to defend myself. Among other things, I have Articles and Pages needing to be written over the next few days and am also going to Atlantic City this weekend. Additionally, 7/4 is also the two-year anniversary of my girlfriend and I, (we just go off of the day we met) so we have plans for basically all day Monday.

I would say that Wizard largely has the final say with respect to the Forums, however, decisions that I personally engage in on the Forums (which are rarer than they used to be) are very rarely questioned by anyone else. With respect to my other dealings with LCB, at least in terms of my Articles and Pages, I answer directly to Johnny Chan and Zuga.

The current Forum Rules state that there are to be, 'No Personal Insults,' so whether or not a Personal Insult is mild is immaterial. A Personal Insult either exists or it does not. I don't see how such a joke would be actionable because I know the joke you are referring to and it is neither profane nor, that I recall, did it actually refer to anyone on the Forum. Even to loosely suggest that I was guilty of Personal Insult would necessitate that a person admit that they are both dumb, a blonde and also they would have to assume that the joke was actually meant as a veiled attack against them. To wit, there is no intent, because I do not even know that any blondes that I would also consider dumb actually post on the Forum.

However, I will admit that the joke (which I consider exceptionally light) could be viewed as being in poor taste. Of course, you say, 'Group,' of people and then go on to name groups of people that are actually protected classes, (nationality, religion) so that comparison is a bit of a reach.

 

Freddy,

That's true, though I am not sure who you are referring to. I certainly try to admit it when I have made a mistake, particularly when I actually believe that I have made a mistake. Of course, that term is subjective so even when presented with arguments from one person that a mistake was made the person who allegedly made the mistake may not be convinced.

 

Mission, while I don't blame you, nor Face, nor BBB, for any of the handling of the Qfit situation, I do reject this idea of "I didn't now the specifics about what occurred behind the scenes". One need not know anything of any of that behinds the scenes stuff, that to absolutely know that Qfit came to WoV after nearly a 6 six year period away, for the singular purpose of having me and my opinion silenced. That is all one need to know to know that things were not handled properly. Everything that happened after the ban is almost irrelevant.

Qfit complained numerous times to Mike. I was told at one point he contacted Mike by email 19 times in a 24 hour period demanding that I be suspended and banned. And once he accomplished that singular goal for which he returned, he then left and will likely not be heard from for another 6 years. Oh, sure, he hung around for a few weeks bickering back and forth with the membership, but he contributed nothing positive and never intended to contribute anything meaningful. And you don't have to take my word for that. A year ago, on his own site, Qfit stated that he didn't trust a site owned by an online casino group and would not participate there.

Since Qfit's whole agenda is so very obvious, people don't need to know every detail to know that it was wrong and speak up. Now if you didn't want to speak up....that's fine, but I reject this idea that you or anyone didn't know enough. Everyone knew all they needed to know.

You asked for suggestions for re-instatement (not that you can do anything in that regard). I won't even go with my first and obvious choice of myself. My suggestion would be that you talk to the power that be about Boz. Now I know that Boz is not technically nuked, but he rightfully feels wronged. Despite that Mike apologized for the juvenile comment he made when suspending Boz, he did not apologize for the suspension itself, which was very weak. Boz's comments that Mike was beginning to look like the person that LarryS and others describe was not a personal attack. A person viewing that as a personal attack is way too thin-skinned and/or looking for problems. Boz is too good a member, too much of an asset to WoV or any forum that he decides to participate at to be gone for such a minor comment.

 

So the trick would be to not say "You are a moron," but to identify classes the individual belongs to and insult those classes, but "cleverly" so the mod can't identify the target.

What a bunch of nonsense. It's all subjective, based on how well the mod knows the target. So there's a built-in bias that protects people the mod knows better. It's a sliding scale.

Well, thanks, mission, for quickly making clear what an un-objective process it is.

 

In looking through the "suspension discussion thread", to refresh myself with exactly what Boz said to warrant his suspension, I came across this comment posted by BBB, referencing my banning, that I must have previously missed.

"I'm going to intercede briefly, though I was asked to stay out of it a couple months ago. Enough people are already gone. Sorry, Mike."

I mean just think about what this says. I knew from a third party that BBB had voiced her disapproval of how Mike handled the situation. (and I appreciate that BBB, if you are reading).

But this comment more or less says she was told to stand down and not discuss it. She even felt the need to apologize for voicing her opinion that goes against Mike. That is just really sad. It is just really hard to comprehend Mike Shackleford's behavior throughout this whole ordeal. I've asked this before but I will ask again.....What kind of man does these things? What kind of man is so insecure that he behaves in this manner? I just feel bad for you Shackleford.

 

KewlJ,

I appreciate that you don't blame me, but with respect to the, 'Specifics,' his intention behind coming to the Forums is not something that I could strictly know. Furthermore, I have no personal knowledge of how many times QFIT did or did not E-Mail Mike as Mike never said anything to me about it. Prior to hearing all of the stuff that you posted over here, I know that QFIT contacted Mike a non-zero amount of times, and that is the extent I knew of that contact.

I also concur with you that, other than the Blackjack Weather Center, QFIT does not seem to have posted much on WoV on any matter not having to do with the altercations between the two of you. Of course, he was, in fairness, also responding to any number of WoV Members who were calling him out. That said, no, there is no denying that I do not recall him posting about anything else.

The only thing that I knew is that there was supposed to be some sort of truce between the two of you that neither of you would mention the other. I do not even know why that was necessary. I believe that I stated over there that, as long as actual profanity and insults could be avoided, the two of you should just have it out. I don't know why the two of you could not talk to one another, though knowing you (in the Internet sense) as I do, I am positive you would have entertained a civil discussion with him.

What juvenile comment do you mean? I see:

"Personal insult. As the second recent offense, seven-day suspension."

And then Wizard quotes someone else and says something about that quote.

http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/25937-closing-kj-thread-really/#post535366

Further, Boz's statement could be construed as a Personal Insult, based on what LarryS and 1BB (is Freddy 1BB?) have had to say about Wizard. I will say that I would not personally Suspend someone for an Insult if it were directed at me, but by the letter of the Rules, I don't see how that is not an actionable comment.

I also agree that Boz is an incredibly valuable Member there, here or wherever he may go. That said, do you have a link to the Insult in question? Finally, even if that were the case, then Wizard must decide whether or not he should apologize to Boz and Boz is the one to decide whether or not he wants to ask for an apology. It is not for me to demand that people above me apologize, and even in a non-employee environment, I would usually only ask a given person to apologize to someone else (on behalf of the offended) in the event that the offended person's feelings were actually hurt by the comment.

Would you like me to pursue the possibility of you getting reinstated, though? Since that was a unique situation that also does not involve a Banning that I actually tend to kind of agree with, (the perceived insult strictly speaking, I feel as though I have standing to bring the matter up. I just looked, and as it turns out, I have not privately discussed the matter with him. I would love nothing more than for you to come back to WoV if I have your go-ahead to bring the matter up.

 

Ok so you are saying that a non government protected class of people are fair game for insulting jokes.

How about AP's. Fair game? Not a government protected group.
How about uni-cyclists....Not a govt protected group
There is no federal statute that provides obese people as a protected class.....are obese jokes along with dumb blonde jokes just peachy?

(Also I appreciate that returned responses can take days. I am in no rush. Some people used to play chess long distance by mail.)

So the insulting joke parameter on that board, is that anything goes except for governmental protected classes? Why is that? The govt cant shut you down for telling a cheap jew joke. Heck there are plenty of references to that here on this site, and its still here.

There is a pick and choosing going on for sure.

Do you recognize any insults on this thread???
http://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/25953-larrys-the-predator/2/#post535770

I am not on the govt protected list.....so I guess if we go by that, insults of non protected people or groups are just fine.

And then you wonder why you hear about uneven punishment,

 

Redietz,

I have no idea what your argument is, my point was that I made a non-targeted joke about an unprotected class of people that any reasonable person, furthermore, would not construe as any position that I hold against people who are both blondes and dumb.

Are there even any Blonde-Haired women that post on WoV besides HotBlonde who I was clearly not referencing in any way and I certainly do not believe she is dumb?

I'm just asking for even the loosest argument whatsoever that I may have been veiling an Insult at a particular Board Member, and there is no argument that you could provide while still appearing to be a reasonable person.

 

LarryS,

Of course jokes should be allowed to be made about AP's in a non-specific way. I just wrote an Article to the effect that some AP's exhibit the tendencies of gambling addicts, of course, I did not name anyone.

Are unicyclist jokes even a thing?

There are certainly a wide variety of, 'Fat,' jokes that are out there, many of them, as you may know, involve, 'Your Mama,' or my Mama, or whoever's Mama about whom the joke is being told.

I'm also not saying that they are peachy, I freely admit that, as an Administrator, telling a, 'Dumb Blonde,' joke was in poor taste. Strictly speaking, it might be in poor taste in any context. I simply maintain that saying a Suspension was somehow due for that reason is a stretch, I've yet to see the Rule that says, 'Do not make a joke that is in poor taste.'

I am not speaking on behalf of the Board right now, so that has nothing to do with the parameter, I am referring to why I did not self-suspend and nor was I Suspended in that particular case.

You were Insulted in that Thread, but as you know, Insults of Nuked Members are specifically allowed by the Rules. That said, Face did close that thread within two hours, which is probably as soon as an Administrator saw it, because it is totally unnecessary to create a thread specifically to insult someone. An argument could be made for removing that thread, if you would like me to raise the matter.

 

They are now!

You don't even need to complete the joke. Just saying someone rides a unicycle is a monster "slam".

And for someone to admit that they ride a unicycle.....well that says all you need to know about that person. And actually maybe it explains some things.

 

"Absolutely no personal insults. If you disagree with another forum member, politely attack the writing, not the writer. (Amended 2/23/14 to not allow personal insults at all. The previous policy was more lenient.)"wow rule number 1

So lets look at what your boss has said about insults. He said that he wants to keep the board insult free to present a nice looking product to people visiting and who are not members passing by..who might want to eventually be members. Fair enough.( i remember his explanation but do not have it quotable)
He wants quality control of a product that has his name on it. That is totally understandable

So do you think that a "visitor" seeing any insult....has a scorecard in front of them and can say "ahh......this insult is not offensive because according to my scorecard...this is directed toward a permanently suspended member".
Does allowing insults to banned members show up anywhere in the rules?
And does that practice jive with the boss's intent to have a clean looking site with no visual insults for appearance purposes.

So anyone can go on right now, and make a thread...KewlJ is an idiot....and that would give the wiz a great appearance to his site? It would be within the rules.

What nonsense.

 

Well this certainly doesn't mesh with his stated desire to have a public suspension list specifically to shame people. I mean that will make a nice impression to those 'passing by'.

 

LarryS,

I apologize if you have not seen it, and to as large a degree as possible and am attempting to enjoy my time on this Forum, so I am not going to hunt down the multiple occasions upon which Wizard has personally said that Nuked Members and Non-Members can be insulted with impunity. You may have seen that Dancer has started posting recently, and Wizard made it a point to emphasize that he is the Bob Dancer, so now any insults against him are effectively insulting a Forum Member which is not allowed.

I'm not saying it looks good, I'm saying that it is allowed pursuant to what Wizard has said with respect to the Rule. Think of me as a cop rather than a Legislator, I don't make the Rules, I enforce them.

Personally, if it were entirely my call, I would not allow for insults of any kind against specific people. If you recall, I suggested we eliminate ALL ad hominem attacks completely, but that suggestion was simply modified to no Insults of Members.

 

KewlJ,

Regardless of Wizard's reasoning for a Suspension List, I personally think it is a beneficial thing to have, (when Administrators...pointing the finger at myself here...actually update it correctly) so that if anyone wants to quickly link back to a reason why a Member was Suspended, then that person can. That includes me, which, as I am asked for specifics of certain incidences here might refer back to that list or request that people Link me to stuff...my memory isn't the best, I've always been an extremely busy guy and that hasn't changed even though I don't work at the hotel anymore.

 

After stating "Personal insult. As the second recent offense, seven-day suspension", Mike made the juvenile comment "feel free to not return". He returned and deleted that comment an hour later. To his credit, he did apology to Boz for that juvenile comment a week later.

 

KewlJ,

In that event, I did not see said comment. I am glad to hear that he apologized for that.