Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

I think it is very childish, immature and incredibly short-sighted to adopt a set of draconian rules, set forth harsh punishments for violations, but then prominently post all serious violations which led to punishment in order to "shame" the violator.

Really, "shame?!"

Bad show, that.

What's next, wearing a scarlet letter?

No, wait: how about a dunking stool?

It would be best to delete and REMOVE, NOT REPOST the offensive posts.

 

I respectfully disagree with this first statement. A person shows up (on Dec 31, 2015) after a 5 year, 9 month absence and immediately and only engages in back and forth argumentative discussion with one member.....me.....it is pretty clear what his intentions are and were. And your final thought here "QFIT does not seem to have posted much on WoV on any matter not having to do with the altercations between the two of you", pretty much says that yeah you understand what his intentions were, so I just don't buy that "I couldn't know argument". Again, I am fine if you (or anyone ) chose not to speak up. But the "I couldn't know" or "I didn't know" argument just doesn't fly. You are smarter than that. I am smarter than that.

The Blackjack weather thing, was not posted until well after this. That was posted after the so-called "truce". And even that was a self-promoting thing do get people to visit his site. Do you think it a coincidence, that 'Zenmaster Flash', a member who has sparsely participated at WoV (maybe 20 posts), but is a prominent member of Qfit's site (as well as a longtime friend), immediately posted a suggestion that Qfit be allowed to link his BJ weather thingy to his Qfit site?

 

And lets discuss this truce. Mike told me I would not be allowed to mention Qfit. I would not be allowed to address him. I would not be allowed to address anything that occurred on his site. I would not be allowed to express my opinion of his site or it's members. Mind you, no rules had been broken. No insults that rose to the level of suspension, yet I was being censored. Limited as to what I could talk about. Limited as to voicing my opinion.

Now at the end of all that, Mike put it in question form, like are you agreeable to this. But make no mistake this was not a question. saying no was not an option. I probably should have said no I don't agree, just to see what would have come next. But really, I think we all can figure what would have come next. Mike just 'proposing' (and I am being very generous with the use of proposing) this truce, made it crystal clear where this was heading and who's side he was on.

As to why Qfit and I didn't discuss this privately? The last time I sent him an email suggesting that we work this out and proposed a solution I received a reply email....not a yes or no answer, but a copy of the complaint he sent to Yahoo mail, telling them he did not want me contacting him and threatening to sue yahoo mail for allowing me to email him. That's what I was dealing with. lol

 

So then, you argue that the Wiz had an agenda, a clear favoring of Norm over you, that your downfall was scripted?

 

MrV,

I do not necessarily disagree with you, again, I'm the cop, not the Legislator. I would certainly say that nobody agrees with every policy when it comes to their employer, (and I was strictly a volunteer when I wasn't writing for the sites) but I certainly agree with enough of the way things work that I work for them and enjoy it.

 

KewlJ,

I'm not trying to bullshit you, here, you have to look at the context in which I am speaking. Was QFIT gunning for you for one reason or another, any reasonable person looking at it NOW would have reason to think that is a possibility. At the time that this was going down, (and it happened pretty fast during a time I was personally very busy) all I saw was QFIT posted a Blackjack Weather Center that, you have to admit, is pretty cool, and that the two of you were arguing. After that, I see something about a truce, and then you mention him and the truce is broken. There is a history here that spans multiple years and Forums, but that's not what I saw at the time.

I believe that QFIT has a vendetta against you, however, I do not know that you did not violate the terms of whatever truce existed.

Anyway, anybody can look at what has happened in the sense of now. QFIT, a Blackjack expert, does not post about Blackjack, he hasn't posted at all, recently. You're gone, man. I don't like it, but I don't have to like it.

In the sense of now was QFIT gunning for you? That might be a reasonable conclusion. Let me say this: Saying that QFIT was there gunning for you could be construed as insulting a Forum Member, so I'm not going to do it, but you'll never see me come to his defense if he says otherwise.

I'm just telling you things as I remember them. I skim threads for Insults, I do not read them for memorization. My recollection is the Blackjack Weather Center and issue with you were effectively the same time. That is honestly both my memory and my perception. Post dates might prove me wrong, but that is what my memory says and I apologize. I truly didn't realize the whole thing was as serious as it was until you were gone.

With respect to the truce, I agree that amounts to censoring, but any business owner or representative has the right to censor such stuff if they desire. As far as the implication that you should agree or face Banning, you're Banned anyway, but you would have a much better argument assuming everything is as you say it is saying, 'No, I do not agree,' and then getting Banned.

Anyway, I am willing and ready to advocate on your behalf if you want to come back. You certainly have contributed to that Forum for an amount of time even more than me, and with respect to Blackjack, you know more than probably anyone there though Romes and Romes alone might give you a run for that title.

I miss having you there and I am personally sorry for what happened. I don't know what else I can say.

 

A practical reason such as this is fine. But that is not what Mike said.

I can't find it right now because the suspension list thread is 800+ pages and I don't wish to look through it, but somewhere someone asks Mike why the suspension list is necessary. Why not just quietly suspend people for violations. Mike's response was something along the lines of "What would be the fun without a public shaming" And then to make his point, he posted a picture of a person with a sign that said "I stole from Walmart". (presumably that was the punishment handled down by a judge).

Now I didn't see this until after I was nuked. To be honest, I never read or concerned myself with the suspension list discussion as they just didn't involve me. But there is just something wrong with that mentality. It's just a side of Mike that is rally bizarre and not in a good way.

 

I recall that post and agree that it exists without the need for you to prove it. I don't know that Mike was not being in some way facetious with that, though, so I cannot say what his intent was. For me, the Suspension List exists for a practical reason. The Suspension List not existing is also a position that can be argued for, and quite frankly, I'm not sure which I would prefer.

 

well then here we are at a crossroads where I view WOV as a business that should have their eye on customer service and customer retenton. Two things that are missing. As KJ has memorialized, withactual figures and I have continually pointed out with my own memory, the member visits are in a downward spiral.

And why? Because of just such behavior. The wizard personally says on a few threads that its ok to insult non members.

Thats just great. And if someone just happened to miss that post on those couple of days on a specific thread....they are out of luck in knowing the rule. Even though there is a section for rules that could easily house that gem of a rule.

Someone got suspended for calling Clinton a lesbian. Which isnt an insult unless you feel lesbians are inferior people. And how do we know if Hiliary is or isnt a member. No one can say for sure.
No one is required to register with their name from their birth certificate.

So now you are on the slippery slope of allowing insults to people who you cant say for sure is or isnt a member(especially if they arent nuked)

Meanwhile the original reason I listed for not having insults, for quality control and appearance to passer's by......is totally blown out of the water as total crap.

Its like a customer returning an item to a store and asking for money back. The customer service person says you cant have your money back. The customer asked to see the return policy, and the agent tells her that the manager announced on the loudspeaker for all store associates and customers to hear that there will no longer be cash back returns.

He has a sections of RULES.....let him put it there.

A few months Ago Alan M was insulted, and left the board. The woman mod said...that he allowed himself to feel insulted so its his fault.. The insult was that he possibly was mentally ill.

So now we have the standard of insults are only hurtful if you allow them to be, so the person receiving the insult is at fault...and if they dont like it...they can leave.

Can anyone select to plead the "its his fault that he is insulted" excuse.....to avoid punishment?

Maybe if the recipient of the mental illness insult was QFIT.....things would have been different.

as I have explained...customer service is horrible. And thats because there are so many loose ends and uneven enforcement of rules. Some of which arent even listed..

So mentioning a rule on a thread, rather than taking 1 minute to add it to the rules sections shows a contempt for the customers. They dont deserve to be fully informed.

Heck Demango asked if people are allowed to insult on the thread and the female mod threatened him with suspension for causing trouble. You know..how dare he bring that up.

But then everything I say is based on the notion that WOV is a "for profit" business. With real customers that add value to the site not by handing voer cash, but by giving of their time effort and expertise. Its a barter system. Each side gets something.
Its not "Mikes living room".....unless mike has billboards in his living room that generate cash for the business.

Its a business that should have specific rules and regs, and have them enforced uniformly.....no matter who is on duty.

So when the person in charge of customer service makes up a rule and justs post it on one of hundreds of threads......or when the person in charge has the customer service attitude"dont let the door hit you"........or when the person in charge proclaims that he goes on a suspension spree when he is in a bad mood........well the...... distain for customers is the culture...and the mods who work for this guy in charge ....follow the leader....Hence...."you are the weakest link" sarcastically mocking parting shot by you. Its all part of the culture. And the mODS FOLLOW THE LEADER.

 

he has said, and the female has echoed....that the suspension list is there to "shame" the individual.
There seems to be some sort of joy or power in feeling that you caused someone 'shame"

However by posting a list and putting a link to a possible insult to a third party.....letting more people see the person insulted..actually could shame the recipient of the insult more than the insulter.

great customer service

 

You, Mission, nor Face, nor BBB, owe me an apology. I do believe Mike does, but that is not going to come. I have tried to respectfully (and at times not so respectfully...) to make my case to him, even 'shame' him, during both private communications as well as public statements here. And the worse part is that I know I have succeeded in doing so. I know that Mike himself, knows he was wrong. But he cannot bring himself to do the right thing.

So no, I do not ask that you or anyone advocate for me and get yourself in trouble, although I do appreciate all who have done just that. I really wanted any admission of wrongdoing and corrective measures to come from Mike himself. And I continue to just be stunned that he doesn't have that within him when he has all but admitted he was wrong. Again, maybe this is more my problem than his. I guess I am just having a really hard time believing he is not the person that I thought he was and that this insecure person, unable to step forward and take responsibility for what he has admitted was wrong.....is who he really is.

 

LarryS,

I agree that, 'Customer Service,' and, 'Customer Retention,' are important aspects of the Forum, and the Rules are intended to ensure that both of those things happen. There will be specific occasions in which it can be perceived to be otherwise, though, I agree. Not everything goes as it should. Not everything is done the way I would do it, but the way I would do things would also have flaws at times.

I agree that we do not know whether or not, 'Real live,' people are Members unless they specifically say that they are. However, you bring Hillary Clinton into the conversation which is interesting because, if I made all the Rules, no non-gambling Topics would be allowed whatsoever. They are simply, in my opinion, non-conducive to the goal of the Forum which I have publicly stated on multiple occasions.

I'm not at all aware of anything concerning AlanMendelson, or if I am, I do not remember it. Please provide a link in this instance and I will reply to the best of my ability.

I agree and have agreed that Rules are occasionally enforced Unevenly, I have done it myself and have admitted as much, but my tendency is to try to keep people I perceive as having value to the Forum and showing a bit of leniency to long-time Members who have contributed a ton of content.

I am not aware of or do not recall an incident with DeMango. Like I said, I do not do as much active Forum Moderation as I once did. I spend easily twenty more times writing content than actively monitoring the Forums.

I will also agree with you that we do follow the leader, to a certain extent, as any employee is subservient to the Owner or Manager of a particular establishment. The one thing that I do understand is the attitude that a person can post there or not post there, and that should be inherently obvious. I will admit that I am not going to bend over backwards to keep every single poster, however, there are those for whom I would personally make more of an effort.

Just like MickeyCrimm, he could have been Nuked an innumerable number of times for posts that I personally deleted. I truly wish we could have kept him around, but I am glad to see that he is here and still active. When it comes to just straight up beating machines, I will unequivocally say that I have heard of none better.

 

LarryS,

With respect to your post, re: highlighting the insult, I do not necessarily disagree. However, that is a consequence of making the post for which a person was Suspended more easily searchable. I have no personal interest in shaming people, and I assure you, my, 'You are the weakest link,' is really meant to be facetious rather than an actual insult.

 

KewlJ,

I do owe you an apology for the situation because you are no longer on the Forums, and quite frankly since I may use profanity here, you are not only an expert in your craft, but you are a good and caring goddamn person. You have spent unbelievable amounts of time not only contributing content to the site, but even more importantly, you did it because you thought it would be beneficial to people who lacked your degree of expertise. You conduct yourself with integrity in everything you do both on the web and off of it.

So, yes, I am sorry and I do owe you the apology. Losing me would not be one-half of the loss to that Forum that losing you is.

I am willing and ready to advocate for you privately, with Mike, and assure you that I will experience no such trouble.

 

wtf......go ahead.....say "I agree"......

 

"Now if you didn't want to speak up....that's fine, but I reject this idea that you or anyone didn't know enough. Everyone knew all they needed to know." Now that is a perfect example of one of your own self created 'facts' that you somehow can read every single persons mind on wov to be absolutely sure that every breathing person who ever read wov knew your terrible, horrible ordeal.
Seriously?

 

LarryS,

I neither agree nor disagree. I do not know whether or not there is an actual joy experienced by, 'Shaming,' a person or whether that is meant facetiously. In order to do that, I would have to literally be the other person. When I say, 'Weakest link,' that is facetious. I can only speak for whether or not I interpret something someone says as facetious, I do not know what is going on in anyone's head other than my own. I'm not an expert in the, 'Harmlessness,' of caffeine, much less Psychology.

 

I am overwhelmed at your kind remarks.

"Degree of expertise" really should not be used to describe me in any topic anywhere, any time. lol. But I do appreciate that some folk recognize that I really do wish to help some newer players, if there are still any left that are considering blackjack AP, and I don't mean specifically playing for a living.

I am lucky (a word I don't often use) enough to play blackjack, a game I love for a living. I am not getting rich, but I make what is a comfortable living for me. And I would not be where I am if it had not been for others on message board sites that shared their knowledge and experiences with me, so I do feel compelled to return that favor, even though it really isn't beneficial to do so.

 

so you are saying when the leader has the attitude..."dont let the door hit you".....and also proclaims he goes on suspension sprees when he is in a bad mood......it rubs off on you and the others.......the contempt for THE CUSTOMERS WHO ARE VIEWED AS LEECHES...AS TAKERS......a one way street where they accept an invitation to 'mikes living room" rubs off on mods......and its not a business at all. Everyone should be beholden and indebted to the wiz. The wiz and the mods are doing them all a favor.

I guess the breaking of a truce, or the non payment of a private bet, has all been layed out for customer service purposes in the rules page as nukeable violations.

I think its right next to the rule about insulting non members being fine.

you have a guy in charge that makes up a rule and buries it in a thread rahter than in the rule section, he has contempt for customers by the way he speaks to people(dont let the door hit you), he admits to using the punishment of customers as a mental slave for his psyche, and people wonder how a situation like KJ occured??? Heck its been occurring for years with people who were less ,liked.

 

Your right, Nate, using "Everyone" was an over-statement. But I have received many comments privately and seen enough public comments to know that many people recognize this fact. I think even people like RS and AxelWolf, that may not be "on my side" right now, thinking that I have not handled myself as well as I could or should have, will concede that Norm came to the site with that agenda.

I can appreciate that you don't share this opinion.