Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

Larry is really fucked up on this contribution to society thing. Well less than half of American workers ever contribute to a retirement plan. So when they retire they just get a social security check. They are then considered low income. So they, how did Larry put it "glomm off society" by living in low income housing where the government pays most of their rent....and draw foods stamps for the rest of their lives. Real contributors to society those people are.

Larry is just pissed because he got AP'd by that casino owner again this weekend.

 

Answers: Minimally so far, yes, yes, and yes. I have top notch health insurance for my partner and myself. I paid off my home earlier this year in February. I donate both money and my time to several charities. My biggest charitable event is coming up this week. I am one of 4 sponsors (and the only one that isn't a large corporation) for a local radio station's school supply give-away. This is my sixth year. I am very proud of that. I also donate to several other charities, including donating half a day each week at a youth homeless shelter, where I do laundry.

I pay into social security, which being in my mid thirties, there seems a good chance this program with be bankrupt before I ever see a dime. Other than that I have not yet done a whole lot preparing for my retirement. I have been focusing on building my bankroll (necessarily to make a living) and paying off my house. Having recently completed my goals in both these areas, I will now begin preparing for my retirement.

I see this "contributes nothing to society" argument fairly regularly and it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. You seem to be going by the 'village' model from centuries past, where everyone was something, baker, butcher, candlestick-maker and made something. Society doesn't work that way anymore. There are all sorts of jobs, where someone is just some sort of middle man. Almost all in the finance world. They don't really make anything (except money).

But anyone who makes money legally....contributes to society. I personally have a cleaning lady and a pool service. That is directly keeping people working. And indirectly, I keep the trash collectors, mailman, and numerous others employed. When I spend money at the grocery store, clothing store and gas station....it helps keep people employed. My tax dollars support and keep the police and firemen employed and other community services as well as all sorts of local state and federal government workers.

So just stop with the "contributes nothing to society" argument.

 

Who the hell said your job has to contribute to society? Again what if someone has a non society contributing job but they donate 12 hours a day and money to helping people? It's not what your day job is that counts it's who you are over all as a person.

As I said before because of AP I tip casino employees far more than the average person. I tipped over 1k in the last month. I spend money traveling for AP. I have helped and employed people. People forget there are doctor's, lawyer's business men, realtors and just about every profession you can think of that make a large chunk of their money APing. I had a judge play for me once.
I have done some AP business with a doctor and many other different professions.

I don't understand why anyone cares about what AP's do or don't do.

I like AP because it's fun, lucrative, interesting it'seems like a treasure hunt with a puzzle you have to figure out.

I get to travel and go places I normally wouldn't have. I have freedom do what I want when I want. I have played judt about every casono game you can imagine. There's always something different and you Lear new things all the time. My parents are proud of me and even tell their friends and neighbors what I do. My older brother and sister are always borrowing money from my father with their normal careers and I don't have to. I have even been able to loan my father money in the past to buy more property. Most people are interested in what I do. I have meet with and worked with many interesting people.

If AP isn't your thing it doesn't affect you Im not sure why it would even be on your mind. I don't think about.

 

I don't have children and have no plans to. (that has nothing to do with my career choice). But I have taught (or am still in the process of teaching) my younger brother everything I know. He is in his second year of playing blackjack for a living. In all honesty, when he declared he wanted to follow in my footsteps, I tried to dissuade him from doing so. Not because there is anything dishonorable...it's just a tough way to make a living at times. You really need to be passionate about it, because I believe almost anyone who makes a living AP-ing, could probably make a better living doing something else.

But after a little hesitation, I taught this "talent" to my brother. And before his, I taught my business and personal partner what I do. He was not an AP, until he followed me to Vegas. These two people, my brother and my partner are the two people in the world that I love and care for more than anyone else, so yes, I can say I don't hesitate to teach those that I care for.

There is no doubt that an AP lifestyle can be a bit non-traditional, as far as hours and travel and such. But so can many other professions. Think about traveling salesmen, professional athletes, and even swing shift or non-traditional shift workers, which is half of the people working in Vegas.

But some of us, try our best to minimize this. I personally moved to a place with a large rotation of games available, so I could avoid most of the travel that other blackjack AP's engage in. For the most part, I work fairly traditional hours. Mostly weekdays, day hours, and I am home in the evenings watching TV or out by the pool. Not all that different from most of my neighbors.

I know and network with several AP's, mostly blackjack, that have very traditional lives, with kids and families. One currently is dealing with the "kids in college stage". He is no different than most other fathers. He just has a job that requires him to travel a number of days per month. Many professionals have such a job.

 

I spent over $5k in expenses within the last 4 weeks on rental cars, flight tickets, and hotel rooms (although those expenses are split with a few others), not to mention another $4-5k [estimate] for paying employees. I pay my taxes every year and my bills every month. I help people make some extra money (people who really need it). From time to time when friends or family come to town, I'll teach them something new or cool that they didn't know before -- like a simple BJ or VP strategy....you don't have to pay for drinks as long as you're playing (so play $1 VBJ slowly and get drunk practically for free)......or I'll get them free rooms on the strip and food, sometimes tickets to a show/concert/boxing match.

*Cue LarryS's "Now all you crackwhore APs are saying how good of people you are, boasting about what great you do for society."*

No, AP'ing is not the most society-contributing job out there, but it's certainly very far from what you depict it to be, Larry. Anyone can call themselves whatever they want. A crackwhore can call himself an AP, just like a crackwhore can call himself a nurse, or the cashier at McDonalds can call himself the CEO of Google, and Bill Gates can call himself a greeter at WalMart, if he so wanted.

Yeah, there may be some slimy APs out there, but I know for a fact there is at least one slimy nurse (or retired nurse?). Maybe if I sell everything I have, give away all my money, move to India and become a monk (or wherever the f*** they live), then LarryS will approve of my lifestyle/career. Is that what you want, Larry?

 

my comments are based on Axels pompous assessment of the american worker. And the people who keep referring to full time gamblers as "professionals"

This country was built on the sweat and taxes of people who sacrificed and had jobs they"hate" in order to raise a family and give them things and opportunity they never had.

There are people who go to work sick every day because they dont want to let down their fellow members of society that theywork with and those who they serve.

If i were given a choice without seeing the neighborhood ahead of time,...that I could move myself and my young children(if i had young children) into a neighborhood of only professional health workers...or professional gamblers....I would pick ...the real profession....health workers. Or a neighborhood of only professional educators vs professional gamblers. I would feel safer in a neighborhood of the real professionals.

And yes KJ when I go to buy a stick of gum, I can pronounce that I am helping society by supporting the gum workers and truck drives that bring the gum tot he store. Just as a person on welfare who spends their welfare check buying food for their family supports society and the workers that process the food, rather than spend the money on heroin . Everyone can claim that they are helping society. Heck a sick gambler that spends the rent money at the craps table can claim they are helping society because part of that money goes to the state. But would I like myself and young children to live in a neighborhood comprised of those gamblers?...even if they proclaim they are professionals?

Are there exceptions like Phil Helmuth, or Doyle Brunson...sure. But for every Helmuth and Brunson.....there are tens of thousands of people who call themselves "professional poker players" that I wouldnt want to live near.....especially the neighborhoods they can afford.

So good for you KJ.....you are the exception. But like I said before its rarely not all about you you you.
I look at the grander scheme of things. Whatever you call them...professional gamblers, Full time gamblers, or a subset of them called APs......when they start bragging how great their life is as compared to all the others that ":hate" their jobs.....I do take exception to that.

And thats all I am saying. Before a full time gambler lectures me on how lucky he is compared to the others who obviously must hate their jobs.....There is another side to that.....and THAT is the side I take.

 

The casinos of Las Vegas AP the world out of 8 billion dollars a year. In the nineties when casinos started proliferating around the country bankruptcy rates shot sky high in areas that had never seen gambling before. When I was playing poker at Sandia in Albuquerque in the mid nineties when a dozen casinos opened up in the state I read a newspaper article about how the bankruptcy rate shot to 1500% of what it formerly was.

Larry, do you know why the casinos in the south and midwest had to be on boats in the water? The powers to be were not totally stupid. They knew that gambling was just a strip mining of the economy. The casinos had to be on water to keep them out of the way of everyday normal commerce.

I personally don't have a problem with casinos. I'm just pointing some things out to you, Larry. If you are going to rant about AP's then you need to start at the top....and that is the casinos themselves. They are the ones that are really making the money.

 

mickey
you made my point,a good percent of the "professional gamblers" end up in the scrap heap of society. The casinos just provide the vehicle for people to destroy themselves and their families. Just as bars and liquor stores do as well.

when casino owners come here and start bragging how they can come and go as they please, and are happier than the majority of americans who hate their jobs.....I might take issue with them as well.

Right now thats not the issue.

I never assumed I was happier than a truck driver or a food server just based on my job vs their job.

There are folks that are easier to criticize with that attitude of superiority.
For example...if a abortion doctor bragged how great his job was compared to all other americans who hate their jobs.......he s open to pushback fro people who feel he is killing babies.....and they could have a valid point. But thats what the docitr opens himself up to with those types of comments.

So if a full time gambler says something similar.....well then get ready to be questioned on your value to society....not you personally...but the group as a whole. Ok, so a full time gambler paints a picture so rosey of being his own man, going and coming as he pleases, not having a boss, etc.
Ok I pointed out the downside to society and to the individual. The downside that you dont hear about as they brag about their "freedom"

The bankruptcies, the doing without, the poorly funded retirement, the poorly funded social security, the strain on wife and kids or the inability to think about even having a wife and kids, the loneliness, the unhappiness causing the need to escape into a bottle or other chemicals. The lack of success leading to stealing food just to stay alive, or worse crime. The depression when they near old age and realize they have nothing saved up....that all their "freedom" added up to nothing in the end.

no one ever talks about that. After 30-40 years of breathing in the second hand smoke...how is the health of these folks. Its all about "freedom" compared to the clock punchers like me who hate their jobs

 

http://roncen.websitetoolbox.com/post/reality-of-gambling-2008-2407530?trail=15&highlight=walk+park

the above first post by a supposed "professional gambler" tells what its like for someone to start out. Do I want to live in a community of those people? You know the ones that brag about all their freedom like axel does? Well the upside is "freedom".....and the downside is everything in the first post of that thread. And how many people who start out like that.....end up progressing? I would submit.....very few.
This is the life of a "professional gambler"...unlike the professional gambler like John PAtrick, the author of the thread......who made money with a long running local cable tv show, a dozen books, tapes, dvds, personal appearances, sports service enrollments. Nope this is the life of a professional gambler that can eek out a living,,,,,eek out an average daily profit. You know the gambler that can proclaim that he is better than the clock punchers because he is free free free to come and go as he pleases.

I can easily say that 90, percent of the people in the medical PROFESSION....lead a financially productive and relatively happy life.
I would guess.....that a majority of the people that start off as professional gamblers........and live the life that JP describes as a beginner "professional"......never make it to the next stage......the stage of financial security and happiness.

You know, the stage where they can look down at the 9-5ers as hating their jobs....and can brag how free and easy their life is.

 

Larry, all my friends are working stiffs. Many of them have loans I've made to them. They do their best to pay me back but there is no way I will ever get all the money back. But I really don't care that much about it. They live from paycheck to paycheck. The economy is crushing them. They haven't had pay raises in years. I've been able to help them out. They are all envious of me, a guy who gambles for a living and makes a good money at it. It's the hole grail to them. They all wish they could do the same thing. Of Course, I can't teach them what I know because I put them into competition against me.

But here is the thing, Larry. I know a hell of a lot about strategic gambling. But I still have to put the hours in to get the money. In that since I'm just a working stiff too. I just have the freedom to set my own hours and don't have to answer to an employer. You are welcome to your opinion but I wouldn't trade my lifestyle for anything.

 

John Patrick is not a professional gambler nor an AP. He's a snake oil salesman suckering others.

 

With all due respect, anyone who thinks John Patrick is a professional gambler (even for a second) really doesn't know of what they are fulminating.

LarryS, I doubt you have really and truly interacted with many people who are actually "professional gamblers." Forum nonsense doesn't count. People with trust funds who play at being poker pros don't count. People with trust funds who say they count cards don't count.

I mean real live actual professionals. They are rare, but they exist (probably not much on forums). They work harder, and have less freedom, than most average American capitalist joes (note: I do not think the "average joe" in the world as a whole necessarily is represented by the average capitalist American). I do not know any professional who thinks they have "more freedom" than the average American. That's a myth.

If you get most of your notions regarding gamblers from WoV or other internet forums, guess what, you are in the dark. Pitch black.

 

LarryS, I don't object to you pointing out the downside of this occupation. Like most things in life their are pros and cons. One of the pros is the whole 'be your own boss thing', just the same as anyone in business for themselves. I don't think it is "bragging" to point to that as a 'plus'.

I, myself have gone out of my way sharing both the pros and cons of my experiences, during my time in the community. I've talked about my first 3 years of full-time play, making 31 thousand dollars....that's total for the 3 years, not average. I have talked about 4 different six-month periods, where I made nothing.....big loss, followed by a long climb back to where I was. Can you imagine going to work every day for 6 months and not getting paid. (Often other self employed people go through this as well, which is just another way we are very similar). I have talked about a whole year recently where my blackjack win was 27k vs expectation of 85k. That's similar having a job that involves commission like realtor and expecting to make 80K and making a third of that. That is a "con" or negative of such a job and that is a "con" of our career. I have shared my worse days...losing 20k in a day earlier this year. But I have shared all that, pros and cons. So when I talk about some of the good aspects, a big run over a couple months or a couple big scores, it's not bragging, it is just sharing all aspects...pros and cons. I am not sure why you take offense at that.

But again, while it is fair for you to point out the pros and cons of playing for a living, your "society" arguments are weird and unfair and unfounded in my experience and among those that I know in this profession.

I rarely see this "attitude of superiority" that you speak of. I know I don't think I am better than anyone...literally. And most AP's I know and engage with don't have this attitude going on. Either your experiences with AP's which I guess is mostly on message boards, is very different than mine, or you have some sort of chip on your shoulder and are looking to take things the wrong way.

This does not represent the reality that I know from being and interacting with other professional AP's. You seem to be mixing in symptoms and results of degenerative gambling which is an addiction. Comparing or linking degenerative gambling addiction and degenerative gamblers, many who have other addictions such as alcoholism to 'true' AP is just delusional.

You seem to want to depict AP's in the worse possible light, and that goes back to you having some sort of chip on your shoulder. I don't know if it is a jealousy thing or what it is. Perhaps a desire to have gone the route (or at least tried) of an AP, but not the nerve to have attempted. I am not trying to put you down. I don't know what your issue is, but you clearly have one.

 

I have to add this. The whole "notion of superiority" thing -- yeah, I think it probably exists to some degree. It's because to survive, you have to be, on some skill level, clearly in the top one percent of the population in your ability to do whatever it is that you do. If you don't acknowledge and recognize that superior ability, you are distorting reality in the service of not being vain, which is an error.

 

redietz
well that also makes my argument.
As opposed to any other "profession" that has a governing board and standards to be met.....no such thing existys with professional gamblers.
Your definition is one that contains a small amount of people. And there are other definitions that incluses millions into the "profession.
There are "professional" singers making 20 dollars a night singing at a local dive hotel lounge, and other professional singers making millions selling out madison square garden. Again, another "profession" that just takes someone to proclaim that they are a member.

So my contention that the vast majorityof "professional gamblers" are not someone I would want my daughter to marry......still stands.

And with Axel being a full time AP/full time gambler/professional gambler...or whatever you want to call him......he left out the part about it being a grind....hard work ......as hard work as a 9-5 job. Already we have a dissagreement between people in the same "profession"

and that is my point exactly.

 

I like the honesty.
It goes agasint the KJ response...but then again its not all about KJ is it

 

I don't know what your issue is. You seem to have this confrontational quality (<-that certainly isn't the right word), about you. You seem to be fighting with everyone all the time, like it is just against your nature to get along and not be confrontational.

It is impossible to try to have a normal discussion with you.

 

its not about me or you...its about the topic, so if you are frustrated that me and others dont agree with you. If you are frustrated that redietz has an opinion and point of view that seems more valid to me......do not blame me or cry that I am against you.

I agree with him that the notion of superiority is very real in the circles of people like axel.....and in your circle you claim it isnt.

so what.

 

I've never met Larry nor KJ.....but I think I'd rather live next to someone like KJ (an AP) than grouchy Mr. Larry (a grouchy "medical professional"). Larry's probably the old grump who lived 4 or 5 houses down from me when I was growing up, who'd say "I'm gonna hose you if you step on my lawn!"

 

hose you with liquid draino