Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

Also I resent the comparison. freddy, lp9. and myslef NEVER went to another pre-exisiting thread and took it over with conversations of sexual preference, and the sexual preference of others. And if the conversation started to go that way, and if we wanted to continue it, we would be good citizens and announce we were starting a new thread out of respect for the original content. The 3 of us always encouraged "fairplay" so we wouldnt be hypocrites and behave otherwise. And we certainly wouldnt want to dump it on the lap of an admin, and tell him...hey you clean this up.

 

You WoV fucks just dont get it. Norm and Mike fucked Kewlj over. Now you are critizing KJ for taking a hard stance about it? Telling him he should take the high road? Turn the other cheek? Get the fuck out.

If you get lowdown with me I'm gonna get lowdown with you. If you fuck me I will fuck you back. Fuck that turn the other cheek bullshit. If you let them assholes slide they will figure you for a weakling and keep on fucking you over.

You have to show them assholes what they are dealing with. Its the only way you will ever get any respect out of them.

Fuck a bunch of candy ass turning the other cheek.

 

Out of curiosity, for KJ, what is the upside to not doing what Mr. Crimm said in this case?

 

Seriously, tell us how you really feel.

 

there is no upside or downside for personal gain. Its fun to give back to people 10x what they give to you.
There is no way me or KJ will be back at wov. Even if allowed, I wouldnt support that site with my time and effort.
If my comments prevents others from being mistreated..then thats a benefit.
If my comments lets people know they are being watched and the loss of business is because of their actions...then thats a benefit for me.

Its not about me me me. I rarely mention my suspension and never laid out the facts to try to convince people here that I was unjustly treated. Its more about shining the light on how my neighbor is treated.

I have spent 10 times more time discussing KJ or boz, or bluechoy, or BB1, B9, etc than crying about myself.

Its about the actions against my neighbors that drives me. Not the personal treatment.

Same with freddy. You never here him talk about himself. Its all about his neighbors. He is a good neighbor.

So there is no personal upside, other than knowing I am helping out my neighbors. Great satisfaction in that.

I agree with MC.....if you see someone fuck your neighbors up the ass....then fuck them up the ass 10x harder and deeper till they bleed out of their mouth. Be an advocate for what is right and wrong rather than being an advocate for yourself.

If all you do is defend yourself and speak about yourself...after a while the sympathy wears off. After a while it seems self serving, even though the behavior that is talked about on wov is despicable . It becomes all about me me me....and not about a general discussion of mistreatment of MANY. Gets tired.

I have been consistent. When I was on wov, I also defended my neighbors more than myself. And I carry that attitude to this site.

 

Great post LarryS and Mickey as well! I will never return the wov site either. Like I said before without KJ posting there, the rest of the wov is boring shit.

 

I actually think I took the high road. I gave it time for Mike to calm down, because he is so highly 'excitable'. I wanted to give him time to re-consider that he was not objective. I didn't attack or criticize him much during this period (I actually didn't even have a platform to do so). My first contact with Mike was 2 months after I had been banned. 2 months! 2 months that he did nothing, including that he never contacted me. Yet he tells everyone how much he wanted to find a way to bring me back. He was trying so damn hard to bring me back and yet he never contacted me in 2 months until I initiated contact. It's just another case of Mike's dishonesty. Call it lying or two-faced or what ever, he tells different stories to different people. And that is why he is so adamant about lack of transparency. Transparency does not allow him to get away with this

And then in that very first message after I had contacted him, he told me that he knew that he had treated me unfairly, but was afraid to do anything about it. He flat out said he was afraid of Norm turning his attacks on him (Mike) instead of me.

That statement actually says something that I have never brought up before and that is not only did Mike admit he was wrong in the way he treated me, but he also acknowledges that he recognized Norm's whole intent was to attack me. I actually have never advocated for anything against Norm. I never asked Mike to censor Norm or limit what he could talk about. I never asked that it be Norm or me. As far as I was concerned Norm was welcome to his opinion, even if it was only to contradict me.

But as the site administrator, the guy making the call, if you really felt the two parties could not co-exist and you knew in your heart that one of the parties came there with only the intent to attack the other, as Mike's very first statement to me sort of says....well that tells you all you need to know about Mike's objectivity.

But the big thing from that initial response of Mike's is it told me there was not a whole lot of sense in continuing any discussion (although I still tried). When a person admits they were wrong, but refuses to do anything about it, what more is there to accomplish.

It was only then that I took, what we will call the "Mickey" approach , and got a little more aggressive by coming to this site and calling him out. I don't mean the "late night Mickey" type aggressive, I just mean letting him know that I am pissed he treated me like a dick, when all I ever did was try to positively contribute to his site. I didn't and still don't deserve that....of course that is my opinion.

Qfit's trap? I didn't fall into Qfit's trap, RS. I knew exactly what he was doing? Talk to Mike privately? You mean the guy who admitted siding with his friend who wasn't even a real member of the site? I should talk to him privately and think that he was going t be objective? Any chance of Mike being objective went out the window, the minute he contacted me about this so-called truce. He calls it a truce. I call it censorship. What he said was I was not allowed to talk about or mention Norm or anything to do with his site. And let's be honest here....do you think that was Mike's brainchild? No that was Norm calling the shots. So please, don't talk to me about "privately talking to Mike" and him being objective.

I mean we are talking Dixieland Justice here. You are pulled over for speeding and go in front of a Judge who is the brother of the sheriff.

You have brought this up multiple times RS. I appreciate the support I got from you and others, but how exactly did you guys giving Norm a hard time after I had been banned help me? How did that work out for me? How did I benefit from that?

You gave Norm a hard time. What I didn't see was some of you guy that really were influential, giving Mike a hard time. Letting him know that he was wrong. Let him know that it's your site too and you have a say. I saw Ron C and a few others do that, but not the hardcore AP group who I thought were my comrades and friends. You guys gave Mike a pass.

 

Am I not your neighbor, LarryS? I don't recall us ever having a problem directly, nor do I remember speaking ill of you here, at WoV, or anywhere else. I usually have a pretty good recollection, and I can't say there's ever been a time you and I, or I and any of the former members here, have had any beef. Yet I'm pretty sure you've called me both "TWOFACE" and "FUCKFACE" before. Does where I hang my hat make me someone elses neighbor? I've always wondered about this and why I was not granted the same protection to seem to bestow on everyone else.


Mr Crimm, that style works for you. You strike me as a legit Marco Solo. You do things your way, by yourself, on your own. You don't ask anything from any man and wouldn't take it if offered. A guy like you can afford to burn bridges, because you don't take the roads, if you ken my meaning. I'm not so sure KJ follows that path.


And KJ. Man, I've been meaning to address you for months now. I had meant to do it back on WoV, but RonC, as he is wont to do, stole my thunder and said most of the things I was thinking. I didn't want to come in and just give the ol +1. But since I'm rolling, I'll give it to you now...

What I was GOING to say was that in your 3,400 or whatever posts, I took interest in maybe 5. Yet, I think I still read every one of your 3,395 others. You just had a way about you. You were well written, polite, helpful, and understanding. You opined gracefully, no matter the subject or your own personal feelings. You were / are very open about your personal life. I am sure, whether you heard from people or not, that you helped a great, great many folks, whether directly when speaking on how to play, or indirectly in the way you carried yourself.

That blow up, when it first happened, threw me for such a loop I don't think I've recovered even yet. I walk in one day and see our own KJ and some Q guy going blow for blow on some shit I wouldn't even expect on a free for all forum. The ferocity with which you both acted, and so out of the blue from nowhere (at least to an outside observer) was shocking and, to me, at least a bit appalling. Yours (and Qs) was the first time in my years of moderating that I didn't think, didn't prepare a statement, but just insta-banned you both, if only to get it to stop. To put that in perspective, think of some of the issues you personally have seen there, and imagine that of all of them, yours was the one I couldn't handle. It wasn't good, my friend.

And not to jump on the pile, by my feelings (for what they're worth) align closely to those of the WoV'ers here. I get that things were said that attack your personal character. I get that you felt your reputation and maybe even your integrity were at stake. And I totally get where and why you feel you got the short end of the stick on this whole deal. But I've often said (and this might be my own youthful ignorance) that no man can make you an asshole. He can try in a very many ways, and some are downright dirty, but it's how you act and react that makes you the man that you are. THAT'S what one gets judged on. I mean, do you judge me by LarryS calling me a fuckface? Or DLN saying I'm full of bullshit? Or MC saying I was one of the good ones? Or do you view my actions thorugh YOUR own filter and make YOUR own determination?

I'm glad you stood up for yourself. I'm glad you posted your truth. But there have been things here or there that I would say, based on my 3-4yrs of "knowing" you, were completely beneath you. Or at least beneath the KJ I've come to know.

I'm not gonna tell you how to act, obviously. You're grown, and I've no age or experience up on you. But posting the truth and then strutting off all fabulously is about how I'd expect the KJ I knew to act. This continuation of rooting around in the doldrums seeing who can be uglier... it's uncouth. The KJ I knew was anything but uncouth.

Whatever, it's just $0.02. Glad to hear your year's going good, anyways. Keep it up, and watch that brother of yours. Beware first time fortune as it make the first time fall all the harder.

 

Thanks Fisk for that, too bad you could not post that on WoV, you know, the truth. I believe KJ about the blowup with Norm: It was all about the money.

 

Wow -- could he really not post that on WoV? Was that a serious comment?

 

I thought I started a thread thanking Face for what I thought was bringing in a new era on wov with the way some things started to be treated.
Fuckface is not in my vocabulary....at least not for people I like. For example, MY MOTHER AND Face.

I would ask a quote be provided...since it has to be from here

and dont give me a line that reads."what the fuck Face"..with a comma left out

 

You are a good guy Fisk. And as Face on the other site, you are a fair and objective moderator. All I can say is if the other mods and particularly the top administrative 'dictator' at WoV, acted with a fraction of your class, objectivity and fairness, what an outstanding site that would be. And this site would have less traffic because one of the leading threads would have never been started or wouldn't have received much traction. But a perfect world it is not.

I respect your opinion and accept your criticism in the well meaning spirit that it was intended. While I am not proud of all my behavior in the handling of this matter, neither do I apologize for it. I feel I was mistreated and want to express that frustration, anger and disappointment. This site provides me that opportunity. I am sorry if that disappoints you. Welcome to the club of those of us disappointed by someone's response and behavior that we thought were a different better person (I speak of Shack).

I am fine with your initial response of a time out while you, who were in shock and awe of immediate and intense war that broke out, figured out what was going on and what to do about it. What I am not fine with what those in charge came up with. If that was a collaborative decision I do hold that against you, although I suspect it wasn't.

You being an objective minded kind of guy and not familiar with Qfit or the situation before it blew up in front of you, I would think would recognize that he brought this war to WoV, just as he had done to other forums, although you had no way of knowing that at the time. And with the benefit of hindsight, I would think you can clearly see he had no intention of doing anything but bringing a feud. It should be more than clear he never intended to contribute positively to the site. That non consideration of what his intents were, along with his history (nearly 6 years since he had participated) vs my own history and obvious intent of contributing to the site, is what I find most disturbing.

Moving on, perhaps your most stinging comment is that you found 5 of my 3200 posts interesting. I realize you are not a blackjack guy, nor a huge AP guy, but damn. Major Ouch!

That first time fall of my brother is my big concern right now. Certainly not wishing or it, but it is part of the business and he has done so well, I feel like I am sort of waiting on it. Experiencing and being able to handle the downswings is a huge lesson in the card counting, blackjack education. I want to do all I can to help him successfully clear that first hurdle and have to admit I am a little nervous/tense waiting on it.

 

the more i think of it the more i think you are mistaken on both names

those are not words i use

i would almost bet on it

 

I could post it, DeMango/red. I'm not bound by any different rules than anyone else. I'd only need to edit some cussin'.

LarryS, you've certainly been cool to me here, and, as I said, I don't recall us ever having an issue directly or otherwise. I don't even think we crossed paths that much, and about my only recollection of you on WoV is people giving you shit about Mayweather. Which i suppose added to my surprise when I read...

"loaded some of my socks with rocks. And I went out there and clubbed as many black (^(($$)&(^n mother %*(*%*(*() as I could find. I beat them black pieces of shit into the ground. It was just us Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana boys that had the guts to pull that shit on them.>>>mickeycrimm on wov

having a back and forth about rules enforcement(b-9)-nuke
discussing the posters as being "customers" and the requirement for better customer serivce(Larry S)----NUKE

Needleing zuga(BUZZ)- nuke

supposed non payment of a private bet(ap)- nuke


However zuga, the beached whale, fuckface, manboy wiz, and failed husband feel the above quote is not as bad.

All of them seem to think that the people who were nuked deserved to be banned...yet there is room for overt racisim against the black community"

I mean, I get that you and the assorted leftovers from GG are always looking to bust on WoV. In some cases, I can even understand. And without being in my head, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone was surprised about my actions during that episode. But for as much as you roast people for being biased and emotionally driven, this surprised me as it felt... pretty biased and emotionally driven.


And KJ, no need to explain or apologize. I just both wanted to say the farewell I never got to, and give you an outside perspective. You do what you do.

But don't miss the compliment. I fucking HATE BJ, so yeah, the majority of your work was not only something I had no interest in, but actively loathe. Yet I still read every word you wrote. That says something. Were I you, I'd send my energy more in that direction. (It was the family / personal stuff that I actively enjoyed, if you were curious =p)

Be safe, stay cool.

 

I don't recall Larry referring to Face as anything but Face...in fact he was complimentary of Face on more than one occasion. The one who uses fuck face constantly is actually one of yours, Face. By one of yours I mean a WOV regular who mysteriously appeared just under a year ago. Someone who most likely has many different handles. Larry can actually hold his own with anyone and doesn't need to resort to those words.

As most of us know, when someone's main vocabulary consists of the same grade school gutter words they have already lost the argument/debate etc. It's fun to watch these guys self destruct right before our eyes.

 

very good.....that is my bad, as i didnt remember that......but I do remember how the mods were so quick to throw people off for a suspension for calling someone "genius" sarcastically.......but a blatant racial slur gets days of huddling.
No excuse for me forgetting I used that word. But thats the first time I felt you were "one of them"....because you had the power to right a very obvious wrong..
So many mods stood on the sideline paralyzed to act. While others were thrown off for lesser reasons given...and in my case NO reason given.
I was disappointed in the only mod I respected...and went ballistic. Thats my fault.

This shows the inconsistency of the mods.

But also shows I should never say "never"......or else I look foolish

 

also, if you stood on the sidelines and didnt act on the racist quote immediately and knew about it....my characterization stands.
But if you were away from the site and didnt see the quote until after he was banned.....then u have my sincere apology.

I just feel strongly against hate speech and people who tolerate it.

people who think using the words "black bastard" is less offensive than calling someone "genius" sarcastically

 

I appreciate you making the effort to say your "farewell", although I still don't believe there has to be any farewell by anyone. It just doesn't have to be that way.

I also didn't completely miss the compliment, although I neglected to acknowledge it, so thank you.

And I did spend my energy in that direction! The fact that so many of my posts were on the topic of BJ/AP that you loath, is clear evidence of what my intent was at WoV. Critics of me say that I do nothing but engage in feuds, bickering and drama, but you have just made my case better than I ever could that the facts do not bare that out. At WoV, for 4+ years, most of my were on topic. It wasn't until somebody, not even a real member of the site, brought the "war" to my doorstep, that that I was forced to fight back.

I do think Fisk makes a good point and have said before, early on when I arrived at this site, that I don't understand all the name calling of anyone, moderators or members at WoV, just because they are at WoV. I am not accusing you specifically LarryS, but if you go back and read 40-50 pages of this thread, like I did when I first got here, there is a mentality of us vs them and anyone at WoV is the enemy. I don't feel that way at all. I have people I still consider friends there, even people that are critical of my behavior. Just because they participate at WoV does not make them evil or make them my enemy.

 

I have been clear, that there are a handful of people at wov that post on various topics and also defend their neighbors when they are mistreated. If anyone looks at the list of my individual posts...welwell over 90 percent are on other threads than the discussion of the suspension list.
As a good neighbor I made it a point to visit that thread and comment when I felt a neighbor was mistreated.
However I was on many other threads.
And those are the people that I respect.
The others that whine and complain constantly wanting punishment of others are "them"
The others that post on topics but live in a hear no evil see no evil , speak no evil world ignoring mistreatment....are "them"
The mods that mistreat people with poor customer service.....are 'them"

But others that lived in that communty and gave their time and effort for the good of the business.....but got mistreated....are not "them" they are "us" in your "us agasint them scenario"

And the others that remain and contribute to the board, and when the time arises defends their neighbors....are ":us"

I have been clear...although it would be too wordy to make it clear in every single post.....that everyone there is not "them"

when I speak of the munchkins......they are the ones that go through their days, looking at the ground, afraid of the powerful wiz, too scared to speak up, and just post their topics with no concern for others....sound familiar?

 

Nope. Not away. Not only was I standing "right there", I was one of the first to see it, and I was the one who initially banned him, and I was the one who put TBD for "further review". Every single bit of that whole act EXCEPT for the final word to ban him forever was all me. No meeting, no powwow, no discussion. I acted alone, and it's all on my shoulders.

I wrote an explanation about it, which was quoted by (I think) Johno at GG. And I stand by it. I stand by it still. Maybe it's because I can relate. I am Native, and it does hurt when people use that against me. My whole life I've gotten to hear about "drunken indians" or "fucking up a savage" or any number of off color remarks about my people that were made TO me, because most people don't realize I am one. I know how much it can hurt, especially in certain circumstances or at certain ages, or from certain people. But I also know fear, and terror, and have experienced my fair share at the hands of other Natives. And in certain situations, like when recalling some of the worst experiences, I do get emotional, and I have absolutely called my fellow Native a "fucking animal" or "savage pos". It's nothing to be proud of, to defend, or even justify. But I am human, and it happens.

Having those experiences, I felt, when reading MC's diatribe, like I was looking in a mirror. I did not then and I still do not now view MC as a hateful racist. What I saw in those words was a reliving of horror. I saw a rebirth of the feelings he had, not in 2013, but in 19sixtysomething. I wanted to give him the opportunity to return and answer for that post. I wanted others to hear that post. I thought, even with how bad the original message was, that there was an opportunity for redemption, and for learning. I thought it could've been a good discussion, and perhaps someone else's eyes could have been opened, as he opened mine by giving me a glimpse into the mirror. I wanted that. And if I could go back, I'd do it the exact same way.

Mickey finally did explain, here at GF some two years later. And it was everything I thought it would be.