Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

yeah but once Ivy was caught, do you think he is going to be allowed to repeatedly do that? That is a good example.
Maybe IVY has value as name recognition for a casino. Maybe its worth for HIM to be allowed to keep taking money. But Joe Blow....consistently winning.....and the only answer is that the casino workers are stupid? Yeah right.

 

by using a players card that allows axholewolf to get his 500 dollar meals.......you dont need a casino worker standing next to you....the computer tracks money in and money out.

 

Stupid question? How about stupid answer? What about when the casino looks at yearly wins or wins over several years? It's all there in the computer. There's only so many casinos out there and some of the pros on these boards have been at it for over 30 years. Not to mention that a chain such as MGM may as well be counted as one casino since they share information instantly and share data bases. Same thing with KewlJ and his blackjack. How much longer does he have left?

Ivy and Johnson are poor examples. Celebrities can draw more business especially when it's put out there that they are taking the casinos to the cleaners. The longtime faceless, nameless, 30 year pros are a different story. They do nothing for the casinos and nothing is lost by throwing them out. Where are Ivy and Johnson going to be in 30 years? Not siphoning money out of casinos, that's for sure. More like footnotes on some obscure web site.

 

Plays don't last forever. It's rare for them to last "years" (or even 1 year). It might only last a few days, a few weeks or months....and possibly even a few years...or as little as a few hours or even minutes.

Ivey and Johnson -- the casino was not like, "Yeah we'll let them play because although we're losing money to them, we'll make more back with advertising and other people coming in." Or else...they would have let them continue to play, don't'cha think? Maybe if it was someone like Ben Affleck counting cards (and the casino allowing him to, knowing what he's doing)....then that'd make sense. Ivey and Johnson made a lot of money from the casino's stupidity -- they (the casino) allowed them (Ivey & Johnson) to play until they figured out what was going on. Had the casino done one ounce of 'homework', they wouldn't have given DJ a 20% rebate nor Ivey his [beyond ludicrous] playing conditions. Maybe next we'll hear from a casino dealing Russian Blackjack to Archie Karas. So yeah, casino stupidity.

This is how I sometimes imagine managers and executives at meetings...

 

'Tis an interesting question, one that I'd like to know, but one I doubt I'll ever get the answer to.

A card would certainly track any and everything, but it still takes a competent person to check what it's sending back. There was a guy at my joint who was handed cars hand over fist because of his play. No joke. Infinity, a Denali, we're talking upper five figures. And even those barely dented his total comps.

I watched this man with a roll of $5k in each hand, piling them into 3 different $100 machines as fast as he could. Wasn't once, either. The hand pays were constant. I honestly wondered why they didn't give him his own clerk and attendant, then sort of joked to myself that even his own crew of individuals wouldn't have been enough for him It wasn't until well over a year of watching this go on that my curiosity met with a slow time in the office and I decided to "check into him". Granted, things such as that weren't my DIRECT responsibility, but it's not hard for me to see that an AP could get away with "being ahead" for an extended period of time without being bothered. Hell, even if it were noticed relatively immediately, only a retard asshole is gonna fuss with a patron at the drop of a hat. Otherwise, you might have just run out a lucky plop without having milked your money back.

I cannot say how he does it, but I can absolutely say that what he's said is possible, at least with the few details given.

 

And then the question remains.....why would a successful person who lives that life....come here and brag that they consistently win on top of getting 500 dollar meals and cruises.

Why would anyone living that life trumpet it, and garner attention.

Its like screaming from the internet rooftop.....please fire me.

It would seem to me, that the people who are successful, would be silent because they have the most to lose.

The people who openly and publicly brag about it have nothing to lose.....they are earning little....so if the opportunities dried up tomorrow....they dont care.

 

So, Fisk, how much was the guy up? You had access to his records right?

 

I did. He wasn't. But something about the whole scene bothered me. I kept at him and just couldn't find anything to latch onto. Nothing other than "something's wrong".

He was embezzling from his O&G co. Not our problem, but felt good to verify my hunch.

But I know, I know, not the same situation, my story doesn't support Axel. I have no idea what the guy does, no idea as to the level of his success, I've barely spoken a direct word to him let alone hung with him or "know" him. I'm just saying that, while generally on their game, there are many casino folks who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. You hit the sites, you've heard of Ivy, and Johnson, the unshuffled Bac deck. The Crimm has reported games set at the wrong pay tables. At my place they installed the wheels wrong. Shit goes wrong to the player's favor all the time.

I can't speak to the level of Axel's success because I haven't paid huge attention to it. But nothing he's said over all the years has struck me as impossible, or even improbable. And I also think it would be difficult to find a number of other players, as he has, and get them to support his posts if they, too, hadn't benefited from his leadership.

In other words, his claim of "success" has passed all my bullshit detectors over all these years and came out as just fine. The level of success is questionable as I don't have the details, but I've no doubt the guy is doing it and doing it well.

 

I don't think any AP's are bragging (except maybe WoN, idk). Originally the question was asked WHY AP's do what they do -- and we presented our reasons why and benefits of AP over a typical 9-5, including freedom from a boss, we can (for the most part) do what we want when we want to, among some nice food comps & suites & all that other stuff, ie: perks. No one was putting down the 9-5 people, as if AP's are better than them or anything like that....but the fact remains, many people who work a 9-5 do not like their job. It's not about putting them down or anything like that. I enjoyed my 9-5 job I had for a little while (like I think most people do), but eventually, it didn't become so much fun anymore, doing the same thing every single day. If you ask a question and it gets answered, don't go turning it around in your usual way. If I ask what your favorite thing about being a nurse is, should I respond and say how much you're bragging? Never mind, that's a rhetorical question.

Not sure why talking about AP would be a significant risk, assuming we don't give out crucial information, and except for Mickey -- it doesn't seem like that's happening. When it comes to valuable stuff, something that could actually cost us money -- yeah, we're going to be silent. (Oh no -- now you're gonna call us all selfish APs!! Don't bother.) What I can't seem to understand is -- What's your problem? Do you think AP isn't a real thing? Do you think it's a real thing but think all (most) APs are lowlifes? Or are you just cynical and hate everyone?

 

John Patrick conditioned us to look askance at the label "professional gambler."

 

I never asked anyone what is so good about being an AP. I responded to an AP who volunteered without my goading that APs are better off than all others where most if not all people hate their jobs.

And then I ask why would a successful AP discuss publically that they even exist. Why gloat. Why shine the light on your total consistent success.
Why not quietly make your money.
If casinos tighten up.....its like the AP is fired from their job. Why risk getting fired.///unless you job is lousy and pays poorly.

Otherwise just because someone asks....doesnt mean successful people would risk their livelyhood just to be polite and answer a question.....over and over and over.

My thought is that real successful APS are quietly sipping their pina colada at resorts......while the wannabes talk and talk and talk up a storm on the internet, looking for some respect.

I dont think the guy FACE talked about( or fisk) was blabbing on the internet....I doubt it highly.

Just because I ask doesnt mean an answer must be given. I am not that powerful.

 

you miss my point....you are saying larry has no life yet you post 10,000 times on a message board....I've been in the casino business a long long time and I know from reading these forums you are the real deal....I also know from reading here that larry is a very very good handicapper so he also is the real deal....what you miss is, although you talk the talk and walk the walk you come off as a big league dickhead.

 

Casino make mistakes all the time sometimes for months. IE. A few years back (About the same time as the Revel "you cant lose" promotion) LVC had Full pay jokers( 100.65). They ran a tier matching promo that including double royals= 102.7% on FPJP) point multipliers, drawings, multiple daily tournaments, weekly free play, cash, back comps etc. It's hard to say what the exact percentage was(they made changes) however lets call it 104% on .25 machines. It lasted for months, Seven I believe (one of the reasons I put up an AP employee recruiting add on WOV). They had many pros, hustlers and AP's playing it, sometimes around the clock.Many players played hours and hours per day, and I estimate Advantage Players made many 100's of thousands accumulative possibly 1 million total. No one was 86ed for AP that I know of. I have meet the owner there and he's not out to exclude AP's.

But yes casinos some casinos 86 any and all pro's all the time. I have been 86'ed ,back roomed and roughed up for simply playing a +EV VP progressive, unfortunately that was before the days of big law suit, paydays and before Bob Nersesian struck fear into the hearts of casinos. I was one of his early cases in the 90's and I got very little. I was one of the first people to receive a certified letter basically attempting to 86 me from a casino for beating them and AP. I wont say how many or what casinos I have been excluded from especially since some have even shut down since. There's many casinos in many states, so the casinos I'm not allowed in are a very small percentage. Avoiding card counting is/was a significant factor in AP longevity.

If there happens to be something lucrative at a casino that I have been 86ed from, I can always send my GF, friend, partner, employee, family members etc. Sometimes you can let a year or two go by and come back without a problem. Sometimes a casino will change ownership and there's no problem.

I can sit and tell you about past and recent situations where casinos have made significant mistakes, however that's dumb. IMO it only helps the newbies(possible future competition) casinos and dark-siders. I have watched as supposed experts miss what I consider obvious good plays. Why talk about that stuff just so they can gain that knowledge then compete next time, or write about it publicly?

 

I have no clue if larry can consistently beat sports (I HIGHL'Y DOUBT IT, AND ILL BET AGAINST IT, lets hear all of his pic ). My smugness or however I come off is a product of defending what I know to be true. In all of my 10k posts 98% of them are not dickheadish in regards to AP.

Guys like Blackhole have started debates criticizing AP and there's really no way to defend his accusations without sounding like a dickhead. Obviously I can let people think whatever misconceptions they want, however many people who don't get it and they might lump legitimate AP's in with system players, con artists and bullshitters. That might impact me if someone is interested in helping me, but they become skeptical or jaded by people peddling complete bullshit.

We have people who are not AP's and have no clue about Advantage Play making criticisms about it. I have nothing to really compare AP to as far as how unique and different it is for everyone. Putting all AP in a box or category is seriously ignorant. There's simply to much variety and difference in AP and the people doing it to make any judgments. It's like telling me a poet and a guy making steel sculptures are both artists therefore they are both the same.

 

I know machine AP like the back of my hand. There is not a game on a machine in a legal jurisdiction anywhere in the world I can't analyze for potential profitability.

I know all machine AP's for what they are. From the top tier making six figures every year to the mid-level making 30 to 50k a year to the low-life hustlers that worked the nickel Bingo's and Vacations for crack money.

That said, if Axel ever wanted to sell shares on a play I would be the first one in. It don't have anything to do with being friends. Strictly a business decision. Its not hard for a real AP----like me, friends and neighbors----to tell who has their shit together and who doesn't.

 

thats the difference between you and me. I do not talk about my winning sports pics. That is boring.
The only time I discuss pics, is not to show off, its to learn something from others...and that occurs during the triple crown races.

Appi and I have discussed the triple crown races online and via email. He is kind to stick up for me. But I really expect others to care. I am not selling my pics so I dont care if people know my results. I am not an egomaniac that needs to shout , look at me. I am no where near the level of APS drinking my pina colada at resorts. I always had my day job.

But if I were at that level.....I would not be shining the light on myself in "look at me...look at me" moments on message boards.
I would not be slamming people who claim people cant win at sports consistently. I would quietly be counting and spending my money. Who the fuck cares what the masses think. As lng as the books keep taking my bets i am happy.

Billy walters before his legal issues, didnt come on gambling sites to brag. And he went on 60 minutes, well after his fortune was made.

I never came on a board and exclaimed that people in my profession are happier than anyone else. But once someone tells me that APs are happier than the vast majority of the population.....then that is total nonsense from someone trying to hard to convince himself that he is happy.

Once someone comes on a board and starts proclaiming how happy they are and how financially set they are........and how much happier they are than me.......its says alot about them.

The real happy ones are quietly living their lives without a peep about how better off they are than me and people like me.

 

oops...i really DONT expect others to care..correction

 

I always called it the false premise. But I've just learned it is called the straw man argument. Google it. Larry you are very good with the straw man argument. You give the illusion of refuting your opponents argument. But in reality you are refuting an argument that was not put forward by your opponent.

 

"Professional gambler" is an oxymoron.

 

Shouldn't this have it's own board about AP or something. Or are you guys controlling this away from the off topic it was and that was attacking you guys and wov. Isn't this special.