Blackjack 18 Illustrious Tells or Illustrious 18, That is the Question.

It all depends on who you are. Are you a casino surveillance agent or a counter trying to squeeze out a win?

 

It is both. If a blackjack player always sticks to basic strategy, casino can only use the player's bet variations, if any, to decide if the player is a card counter or not. But if the player sometimes deviates from basic strategy, each deviation provides a telltale clue to the casino. If the deviations always fit the patterns of the commonly known Illustrious 18, the player is no longer a simple player, but a hated counter to the casino.

The Moral: Counters can't be complacent with knowing only 18 deviation plays; Counters need to know more, more and much more for career protection.

 

In addition to the commonly known Ill 18, counters can play with 50+, 80+, or even 100+ indices, many of which can serve to confuse the casino in addition to adding to card counting profitability.

 

The choice between the Illustrious Tells and the Illustrious 18 truly depends on your role in the casino. If you are a casino surveillance agent, you might find the Illustrious Tells to be more relevant as they focus on spotting suspicious behavior and actions from players. On the other hand, if you are a card counter aiming to maximize your chances of winning, the Illustrious 18 would be of greater importance as it highlights specific strategic plays to gain an edge. So, are you looking to keep a close eye on players or trying to enhance your winning strategy? Your answer will determine which set of techniques is more suitable for you.

 

[QUOTE="Gullywin, post: 164245, member: 11411" * * * if you are a card counter aiming to maximize your chances of winning, the Illustrious 18 would be of greater importance as it highlights specific strategic plays to gain an edge.* * * [/QUOTE]


Card counters have been led to believe learning anything beyond 18 indices is a waste of time. Collectively, generations of card counters must have left tens of millions on blackjack tables for the benefits of casinos.

If you are a card counter aiming to maximize your chances of wining, shouldn't you trying to remember as many deviation indices as possible?

 

Card counters have been led to believe learning anything beyond 18 indices is a waste of time. Collectively, generations of card counters must have left tens of millions on casinos' blackjack tables. Illustrious 18, or 18 Illustrious Tells, whatever your name, Thank you Very Much! From Your Most Affectionate Casino with Love.

If you are a card counter aiming to maximize your chances of wining, shouldn't you remember as many deviation indices as possible?

 

Overheard at a Casino Lounge when the Band Stopped:
A: Hi dude, I heard they are selling some magical deviation system like hotcakes that18 of them alone can capture 90% or more of all possible winnings.
B: 90%? That's a lot. But you still give up 10% though. If I can get a 10%-CD from my bank, I will . . . .
A: 10% CD? You are dreaming.90% is good enough for me. I'm not greedy.
B: We love ye! I don't have my calculator now. But . . .
A: I have my cell phone. Let's see. How much you could have got in 5 years with your 10% CDs. 1 x 1.1 x 1.1x 1.1 x1.1 x 1.1 = . . . . Another 5 years . . . Wow! 235%, Dammed it. I was robbed!
B: Cheers!

 

Give it a rest Moraine. Who told you that you have to play 18 index play? Nobody. Play what you want to play. Everybody make those kind of decisions based on their own circumstances.

It sure feels like you are attempting to smear the Illustrious 18 and by association Don Schlesinger., who is credited for Illustrious 18. Don is a math guy. He is not someone who pushes anything on anybody. He simply showed by that math that the top 18 index plays will get about 90% of the advantage of a player that plays hundreds. Everybody should do with that info what they want.

Here is an example: I network with 5 or 6 players somewhat regularly. Some play Ill 18, others play more like 40 or 50 and one plays 200. (BTW, Schlesinger himself plays 200 index plays). But here is something interesting, none of the people I network with split 10's vs 5 or 6. I mean that is number 4 & 5 of the supposedly most important. But a player playing these will dramatically shorten their longevity and everyone knows it. So that math will say you are giving up a small % of advantage by not playing, but if it extends longevity by twice as much, 3 times as much....NOT EVEN A CLOSE DECISION.

One of the big tells of a card counter is a player playing the same hand differently at different times. Pit folks don't even have to know the correct play. If they just see a player standing on 16 vs 10 sometimes and hitting other times, that raises a big red "card counter" flag.

So you know how many of the Ill 18 I play? ZERO! I play card counters basic strategy. If you don't know what that is....look it up. It means you play every hand the same way no matter the count. They never see you play the same hand differently, so it completely eliminates that big tell. You play the hand in a way that would be advantageous when your bigger bets are out and might be slightly wrong when your much smaller bets are out. Yes there is a small cost, but if you play this way, eliminating one of the bigger tells, longevity soars.

It is about big picture. Your posts seem to be focusing on small picture.

 

Lol it’s about the big picture as opposed to the fiction and lies you post about. Seriously you have zero credibility to even suggest anything to morraine, zerrrrrrrroooooooooooo

 

The title of the thread is: "18 Illustrious Tells or Illustrious 18, That is the Question." The thread sincerely invites discussions on the benefits and the perils associated with the use of Illustrious 18. Thanks for chiming in.

Blackjack players are often asked these questions at the table: "Do you want to be rated?" What does "rated" mean?

Moraine couldn't understand it when first confronted with the question, but it became clear to Moraine years later one day. Hah, a casino personnel training leaflet divides the casino's blackjack customers into several categories: the top one being basic strategy players, the 2nd one being Illustrious 18 Deviations players, the 3rd one being something like Plus-Count Deviations Players, and the 4th being . . . ." So, "rated" at least includes being rated as an "Illustrious 18 Deviations card counter" or not.

The above was a narrative of facts that Moraine would like to share with all. Please do not interpret it as an attempt to "smear the Illustrious 18 or by association . . . ."

 

The title of the thread is: "18 Illustrious Tells or Illustrious 18, That is the Question." The thread sincerely invites discussions on the benefits and the perils associated with the use of Illustrious 18. Thanks for chiming in.

Blackjack players are often asked these questions at the table: "Do you want to be rated?" What does "rated" mean?

Moraine couldn't understand it when first confronted with the question, but it became clear to Moraine years later one day. Hah, a casino personnel training leaflet divides the casino's blackjack customers into several categories: the top one being basic strategy players, the 2nd one being Illustrious 18 Deviations players, the 3rd one being something like Plus-Count Deviations Players, and the 4th being . . . ." So, "rated" at least includes being rated as an "Illustrious 18 Deviations card counter" or not.

The above was a narrative of facts that Moraine like to share with all. Please do not interpret it as an attempt to "smear the Illustrious 18 or by association . . . ."

 

Found from the web: 'If you are a practicing Hi-Lo player and have diligently committed to memory 150 to 200 index numbers, you may be interested to learn that for this particular game and style of play, you might as well throw 90% of your numbers away and keep just the “Illustrious 18.” On the other hand, if you have just mastered true count and were about to embark upon your study of the index-number matrix, I have saved you a great deal of work. Learn the plays in the chart and forget about the rest. You can trust me that you won’t be missing much.'

Who could possibly be that "Nobody"???

 

Moraine, I am not here to fight with you. You do whatever you like. Play 200 index plays if you want. Just know that it doesn't add that much, invites mistakes and that there are far better things you could be doing that do make a bigger impact on results.

Two points I want to make. 1) most pit folks know basic strategy and if the know any index plays it is the Illustrious 18. So when a player starts making these deviations and making plays that are not basic strategy, nor Illustrious 18, it raises a flag to them. Just like splitting 10's that player is either and idiot or advantage player. Once they have come to that conclusion, it doesn't take long to figure out which. If you get backed off and banned, you can be the greatest card counter in the world, playing the highest level count and 200 index play and it doesn't matter if you can't play. In today's world, it is about doing what you can to be able (allowed) to keep playing. I am in my 20th year of supporting myself from blackjack play.

2.) In the USA, where your profile says you are, 95% (probably more) of games are either 6 decks or 8 decks with very mediocre penetration of 75% or there abouts. The way to beat those games is simply getting more money out in the few really good counts. Index plays is a distant second in importance, as is what count a player even plays, as long as it identifies most of the stronger advantage situations.

But again, do what you want to do. additional Index plays and higher counts are what I call chasing pennies, when you should be chasing dollars.

 

Morraine, it has been established conclusively that UNKewlJ plays very little blackjack, just some red to green chip action and mostly low end video poker to provide cover for what seedvalue uncovered as his actual "activity" in the casinos.

For good reason, you should ignore anything he has to say unless you want to just go read about it yourself in the books and online places where he has lifted his theories from.

When UNkewLyingJ finds something someone has written that conflicts with the theories he has read about, he objects although he's never tried it one way or another himself. He has no real experience at blackjack and evidence of this has been posted all over the internet including that he was recently found to be lying for six months straight day in day out (and even admitted it finally, when cornered).

 

[Emphasis added]

[Emphasis added]

Congratulations on your 20 years of success first.

Moraine ain't no math guy. All he knows as a penny chaser is how much he could get from a bank account paying interest versus no interest.‍♂️

Based on a 90% estimate, the performance of full indexes v. Top 18 indexes = 1 vs. 0.9, and 1/0.9 =1.111 This translates into that an Illustrious18 practitioner would leave 11.1% of his/her card counting profit on blackjack tables in a year. And in 10 years, 11.1% compounds into 1.111 ^ 10 = 2.87 = 287%. In 20 years, 1.111 ^ 20 = 822%.

HELP, HELP! ANY MATH GUY OUT THERE !!! Is it the same as saying that every Illustrious 18 adherent is LOSING 2.87 -1 = 1.87 = 187% of his/her card counting profit in 10 years? And in 20 years, 8.22 - 1 = 7.22 = 722% ???

From Casino with Love: "Winning less is not the same as losing, but like they said, a sucker is born every minute."

 

Come on dude, it doesn't work that way.

A professional player or professional level card counter, it is about being able to keep playing year after year. Longevity. Otherwise, you become one of those stats of players that were able to play a couple years and then are banned most place and can't get a game. You end up running a blackjack "bootcamp" or writing a book.

The fact is there are 3 big "tells" of a card counter at this level that will stop a player from achieving some longevity.

One of those 3 is playing the same hand differently at different times. Your index plays. Pit folks don't even have to know the proper play, all they have to do is see you hitting your 16 vs 10 sometimes (negative counts) and not other times (plus counts), or see you insure your blackjack sometimes (below TC +3) but insure it other times (+3 and above). These things are a "tell". And the more index plays you play, the bigger the tell. A player can eliminate most of that tell by playing a smaller number of index plays. And they can remove all of that tell by playing counters basic strategy, eliminating play variation.

#2 and #3 of the tells that identify card counters have to do with the bet spread. One is retreating from a large wager (strong +EV count) back to a smaller wager at the shuffle. This "tell" also can be eliminated if you exit after showing your max bet or larger wagers, rather than retreat back to a smaller wager.

So 2 of the 3 biggest "tells" of a card counter, the player has the ability to eliminate.

The third is a little harder. It is the bet spread itself. Betting small in negative and neutral counts and bigger in plus (+EV) counts. This is what card counting is all about and there is no real way to eliminate that. You can employ some cover plays to not make it as obvious, but when an evaluation of your play is being done, the results will show that you wager more in favorable situations than negative situation....no matter what you do.

So any cover you employ won't "fool" the computerized evaluation. BUT, it may fool the pit person for at least a little while and it is the pit person that orders these evaluation. So any time you can buy is....extra time, equals extra money.

That is essentially what card counting is about today. It isn't about different counts (most identify most of the same advantage situations). It isn't about 100's of index plays which actually reveal that you are a card counter by nature. It isn't even about "tricking" anyone. It is about being able to play as long as you can and adopting a style that will allow for as much longevity as you can get.

No offense, but players that tell you this higher level of count is worth xx% more or extra index plays are worth xx% more, are players that if they play for any real money won't be able to get a game for long because they have exposed themselves. I always go back to something Standford Wong wrote. Doesn't mean much if you are the greatest card counter, using the highest level count, playing hundreds of index plays, if no casino will allow you to play. THAT is really what serious card counting is about today. Coming up with ways to continue to be welcome to play. THAT is the battle.

Just some thoughts based on my experience. You decide what is best for you (as every player should) and implement it as best you can. But this idea that something is worth xx% more, compounded is just sort of nonsense if you can't play for long.

 

You raised many interesting points -- each may deserve separate discussions. I will focus here on the points that relate more directly to Illustrious 18 only.

• You seemed to think that the more indexes used, the more the card counters expose themselves as card counters. On this, I will say your point may be valid if the card counters only use Illustrious 18 -- aka 18 Illustrious Tells here. I am of the opinion that once a card counter has a large number of deviation indices, say 70 or 80-plus, in his/her repertoire, he/she can out-smart casino floor personnel more easily by using some unusual non-Illustrious 18 deviations. Just consider what will be your own reaction when you see a player at the same table splitting 2-2 vs 8 or not doubling down on 10 vs. 9. Is the player more likely a card counter or a confused player?
• You didn't comment upon the 722% cost figure for a 20-year-long Illustrious 18 adherent. 722% profit-reduction over a 20-year span is brutal, isn't it?
• You mentioned "running a blackjack bootcamp" for out-of-job card counters. Interesting! I have never been in a "blackjack bootcamp", but I dare say that all blackjack bootcamps in existence today are more likely to tell their happy campers that Illustrious 18 is all they need to know, and will never say that 722% PROFIT REDUCTION is their reward if they faithfully adhere to the teaching of Illustrious 18 for the next 20 years.

 

I didn't address this because these aren't real numbers.

Like I said players need to decide for themselves what is beneficial and what isn't. But to do this you have to be honest. If you come up with a set of numbers like this, that the small gain from using the index plays above 18 is worth 722%, then you are simply not being honest...mostly with yourself.

Additionally, the fact that you again mentioned a 20 year span, means you have missed my point entirely. What if by playing more index plays, one of 3 tells of a card counter you don't get 20 years, but get 12. What if you get 8? or 6? instead. Lets see your calculations about whether using more index plays was worth it then?

Look, Moraine, I don't want to fight with you. You should decide what is best for you and your situation and do it.

At this point of my career, I am convinced longevity is the key. Nothing else matter if you aren't allowed to play anywhere or can only play for a couple years before wearing out your welcome everywhere. And there are a whole bunch of card counters and former card counters that has been their path.

Everything I do...everything is about achieving and preserving longevity. You can't make money if you can't play.

 

Also see, https://www.gamblingforums.com/threads/here-is-some-real-world-proof-that-unkewlj-might-not-really-play-blackjack.25027/#post-165935

 

MDawg, why do you continue to hijack legitimate gambling discussions with your supercilious trolling?

Grow up.