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Slots -EV...big score

Discussion in 'Slots Forum' started by KewlJ, May 8, 2017.

  1. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    So I never expected that I would ever post on a 'slot' forum. I am a professional blackjack player and nearly all my income comes from +EV blackjack play. But my partner and I do engage in some supplemental machine play (mostly video poker), which accounts for about 20% of my income. But I, nor him ever....never ever play slots.....well until last month. o_O

    So on a road trip, we visited a casino we had never played before, and likely never will again. They had a promotion offering free play to new player card sign-ups and they matched tiers from other casinos, so we qualified for $50 free play each.

    So, there was a restriction that the free play could not be used on video poker as we intended, so my partner played a progressive slot and somehow, hit a low 6 figure jackpot. :)

    I am an AP (advantage player). I am all about +EV. Generally, I don't think much about -EV scores. BUT, hard not to be pleased. :D

    It did set up a little bit of a conflict in our household though. My brother (who also plays BJ professionally), myself and my partner all are partners in the machine portion of our supplemental play. Here in Vegas where the majority of our play takes place, my partner plays through all our free play on all our cards, and we have multiple cards at some properties. And he plays whatever amount necessary to continue to receive future free play, which makes the whole exercise +EV.

    So my brother was not on this trip with us. My partner feels my brother is not entitled to a share. But we never stipulated for such a scenario. The agreement is that we all were partners in this machine play area. My brother offered to not take a share, but I overruled. He is entitled to a share. So there is a little resentment by my partner, but he will get over it. It's funny (sad) how a little money brings out the worst in people. :(
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  2. Mission146

    Mission146 Well-Known Member

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    A LITTLE MONEY!? Come on, man! Isn't low six figures your positive expectation (individually speaking) for an entire year? If I remember what you wrote two or three years ago correctly, I think that's about right.

    Were you guys playing on the Free Play only and there was still FP left? If so, even the slot machine wasn't -EV because each of you got $50 FP just for walking in. Your ER is technically infinite if you're not putting in your own money because you can't lose. Now, if the FP had already been fully run through, then that IS your money now, and the slot would have been -EV.

    If you guys have been equal partners on machines this long, and getting this FP action was considered a part of that in terms of being, "On a play," then it should be split. If your partner and yourself were just doing it recreationally (not using bankroll, otherwise not adding the proceeds to bankroll) then you could make an argument it need not be split. If it was part of your, "Overall action," then your brother doesn't need to be there, the agreement is you split everything.

    Congrats, by the way!!! What machine?
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2017
  3. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    KJ, a litte advice that you may already know. One person playing off freeplay on three different cards, back to back to back, on the same machine is a no no. It's a detectable pattern. I know people who have had their cards revoked because of it. Your partner needs to mix it up so no pattern is detected.

    And I agree with mission. It was a +EV play because it was free.
     
  4. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I know it was plus EV. Even if we had won $1.25, it was still plus EV. I am just not a machine guy like you and that kind of score on a machine just seems like complete luck to me. We got lucky on a negative EV machine. That's what I should have said as the title. You and Mission are right, the play itself was still +EV.

    My partner is very good at mixing it up. That is something we learned from the Pennsylvania case, where AP's were busted for using other team members cards, which apparently is actually illegal in Pa. Imagine the married couples and older senior citizen, family members and friends that unknowingly breaking the law when they play through their spouses or sister's $10 FP. :rolleyes: Ya know I never heard an outcome to that Pa case? Probably settled quietly with a slap on the wrist. Anyone know?
     
  5. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    You are correct 100k is just about my average annual EV. 70-80K EV from blackjack depending on just how much I play and 20k or so EV from our machine play. I am probably not scoring that machine play part correctly because there is 'hidden' EV in the form of contests and drawings entered because of play. And we have hit a few 5 figure plus prizes from these drawings over the years, including a vehicle. So I am probably shorting that estimate. Plus, I haven't even counted in all the free meals from points earned from this machine play.

    So yeah this hit was a little more than a year of my EV. And in reality it will be much less as there is going to be a big tax bite. We will only be able to offset a portion of this win. And being that the win is in one person's name, the tax bite will be worse. In addition, I am going to have to pay the tax guy who specializes in this field additional fees.

    So by the time you figure everything, a two way split and a three way split will only result in a share difference of less than $15 grand, maybe much less. THAT is relatively small amount to be thinking you should screw a partner AND family member out of. We are over that hump now, but I was disappointed my partner even had that thought. It's family for god sakes and that's what I meant when I said "a little money brings out the worst in people". :(
     
  6. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I suppose this issue even arising is a result of the way I run things. The big teams, whether blackjack or machine play teams (which I am less familiar with) surely spell everything out in great detail. Who is getting what share for every situation and circumstance. They are like a corporation.

    My family partnerships, with my partner and brother, is NOT a corporation. We are like a family pizza business. We have a general agreement, and do what is required to be legal, but every single detail isn't spelled out in advance. And that can lead to circumstances that were sort of unforeseen (like just occurred). We deal with them and try to come up with a fair way of handling it when it does. Maybe a little less 'professional' and a little more 'family', but that's the way I want it. :)
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  7. RS

    RS Member

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    Sounds like a nice win, to say the least. I'm having trouble figuring out how someone could hit for $100k on a slot machine where they were playing through $50 in FP. If it were me, I'd'a been playing something at $1/spin likely (depending on which machines they had and all that)....seems like you'd have to be playing at least a decently high $$/spin game to hit that big. Gratz on the big win. When're ya gonna post the pic?


    RE taxes -- I don't know how all the different tax stuff works (I got someone to do that BS for me). But I'm pretty sure whoever hit the jackpot can send a 1099 to the other(s) or a 5754.....although a 5754 might be a thing that's only done at the time the JP is hit. Also, it might be a good idea to file as a business and do all that stuff.


    As far as how it's split up -- I think it's rather straightforward. Did your brother have action on the play, yes or no? If he did, then he should get whatever % he should get. If not, then he gets nothing....or give him a "bonus" if you think he should get a cut but not a full share.
     

  8. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I am not posting the picture as my partner is in the picture. lol. I didn't take the pic for purposes of posting it...just a personal memento. I generally don't do the posting picture thing. I am not proving anything. If people want to believe me, believe me, if they don't, then don't. Doesn't matter to me.

    Here is the deal we have. For years my partner has used my card(s) and his, playing through freeplay, plus earning new free play. Generally the mailer free play offers are disproportionately high enough to make the who exercise +EV. Doing this for numerous cards generated about 35-45k EV per year, which we split the earnings at the end of the year. So this year, same arrangement, we just added my brother to the mix.

    So that's the arrangement, all earnings split. We had no provision for breaking it down by individual plays or trips. So while my brother was not on this trip, meaning he couldn't sign up for the free play bonus, he is still a partner in this partnership. AND, my brother even took on extra responsibility of plaything through our free play on all our cards, here in Vegas while my partner and I were on our trip.

    So to me it's a big picture thing. The three of us are partners, regardless that he was not actually present or involved in this particular play. And by the same token, had my brother hit something big on our free play, while we were away, we were all still partners.
     
  9. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Well-Known Member

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    What progessive machine was it?
     
  10. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

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    When a team splits winnings, what name(s) is/are the W-2G issued in?

    Seems to me that if it is only one person's name, the IRS would reasonably require that player to report the full win on his return.

    How would the team report it?
     
  11. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    Form 5754-Splitting of Gambling Winnings
     
  12. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

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    Ah, never knew of that one (never had occasion to need it, I suppose); thanks.
     
  13. Gullywin

    Gullywin Member

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    Oh, I was unaware of that particular information (I guess I've never encountered a situation where I needed it); thank you for sharing.
     
  14. Scarlett

    Scarlett New Member

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    We have online casino games platform with multiple game like Orion star, Juwa, Moolah, Firekirin, Panda Master and Milkyway aslo good cash out rules and many bonuses. If any one try than let me know
     


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