Las Vegas GF Chat Room

Sorry Rob, I just don't care enough to play these coach belly like gottch ya games. Published articles verifying the flaw in a movie 15 years ago? What the hell are you talking about?

And I have been through all this before mentioning some of the players that have stated they have used this technique. Not going through that again either. When I first mentioned tracking a second table, I was still using that technique regularly. I think I was very generous explaining exactly and I mean exactly, right down to the best seat, how it worked. And I continued to try to explain whenever it was brought up. Conditions are now almost gone for even doing the play or technique. I am not going to just keep repeating it, when you don't want to understand anyway. I am really tired of this kind of stuff. I don't care anymore. Think whatever you want to think. You will anyway. It is not going to effect me.

Seriously, I am just tired of playing these games with the whole bunch of you guys. "He doesn't play blackjack for a living." "He doesn't live in Las Vegas." "He lives in a slum." "Sugardaddy nonsense". I am really just tired of all these games. Several people from these forums have found where I live. One came to my home. One posted the information online and I believe sent it to casinos. And STILL you people make up lies. Come on man.....I am done with this nonsense.

 

I'm happy to cease discussing the 2nd table nonsense also. This is what happens when something as utterly silly as this claim gets any traction whatsoever.

You have been pardoned

 

What, are you giving out Papal Dispensations now?

KJ's claims of charting two tables is both defensible and worthy of discussion.

 

There's nothing farfetched about counting two tables. It requires no super powers.

 

Then tell kew to keep the discussion going and answer my two questions instead of running for the nearest safe space. Of course, this is assuming he isn't drowning in his own sweat after axel nailed him to the wall.

If as you claim it's "defensible" then it wouldn't hurt if you "defended" it. Not via internet forum anonymous poster and commercial-interest hearsay---but by real life experience as I offered in countering the claim.

 

[QUOTE="RobSinger]If as you claim it's "defensible" then it wouldn't hurt if you "defended" it. Not via internet forum anonymous poster and commercial-interest hearsay---but by real life experience as I offered in countering the claim.[/QUOTE]

By "defensible" I mean it "makes sense, at least in theory."

I don't play BJ but I;ll scope out a few tables some day and try to form my own empirical opinion.

But over the years I've concluded KJ seems to be credible, not a lying bullshitter trying to con the world.

 

I heard an interview of a prominent MIT team member on GWAE. They asked him how accurate the story was. The guy said the book was about half right and the movie threw the right part out. In other words wasn't even close to being accurate.

The 21 story of how the investigator figured out the MIT team is eerily similar to Ken Uston's story in the Big Player. I had read The Big Player long before 21 came out and I read 21 when that movie came out.

The story about how the 21 team was found out was the same as the Uston story published in 1977. I think the producers used a lot of Uston's story in 21.

 

By "defensible" I mean it "makes sense, at least in theory."

I don't play BJ but I;ll scope out a few tables some day and try to form my own empirical opinion.

But over the years I've concluded KJ seems to be credible, not a lying bullshitter trying to con the world.[/QUOTE]

Mr. V, here's a list of exploitable slots at Chinook Winds:

Ocean Magic
Golden Egypt
Progressive Pays
Aztec Chief
Magic of the Nile
Fu Dai Boost 4
Hexbreaker3
Cash Falls
Regal Riches
Star Goddess
Pinwheel Prizes
Five Coin Frenzy
3 Little Piggies
Wheel of Fortune

And here's a list of exploitables at Spirit Mountain

Hexbreaker3
Magic of the Nile
Aztec Chief
Farmville
Bonus Streak
Ultimate X
Golden Jungle Grand
Joe Blow
Buffalo Diamonds
Cash Falls
Golden Egypt Grand
Block Bonanza
Icy Wilds Grand
Regal Riches
Zodiac Lion
Wild Pirates
Diamond Mania
Golden Egypt
Pinwheel Prizes
Fu Dai Boost
Cashman Bingo
Star Goddess

See what you can figure out.

 

I have seen that quote that the book was half right and the movie threw out the things that were right before mickey. That is funny, but sadly true about a lot of stuff coming out of Hollywood billed as "based" on true events.

Specific to this, the book was called Bring Down the House and was published 5-6 years before the movie came out. I suspect they changed the name of the movie to "21" because there was a movie already out named bringing down the house with Steve Martine and Queen Latifa that was not about this subject. There was also a second book, less popular and successful of a different name, which I forget the name.

So I read the book in late 2003 or early 2004, during a time that I was still working a fulltime job, but had begun playing blackjack on the side, before I quit my job and started playing blackjack for a living in 2004. The book was much more extensive and at times very different from the movie, just as mickey alluded to. I will give a few examples:

In the book, they got into the night of the Holyfield-Tyson fight (when Tyson bit Holyfield's ear) and the riots that broke out in the casino (MGM) with tables overturned and chips everywhere. That event triggered a chip swamp, where customers with chips had to swap out for new chips. The MIT team was sitting on ten's of thousands, maybe 100's of thousands in chips and thought it would be suspicious to swap them, so the used showgirls to swap out for them, giving the girls a percentage. They movie didn't really get into the "why" of that, if I remember correctly. They showed a scene with the show girls cashing chips but didn't mention or get into the reason why, or even mention the Tyson-Holifield fight.

The book also got into the break up of that particular MIT team, and how members from that team then formed two different competing MIT teams, and how members of one may have been responsible for ratting out members of the other team. The movie never got into that. And the movie only barely mentioned in the very beginning that there had been MIT teams dating back to the 60's.

And of course the previously mentioned "how they were caught" is another difference. Again, it has been a while since I saw the movie but in the movie the Lawrence Fishburn character, who was based on Andy Anderson from Griffin detective agency, who was THE database in Vegas at the time, was looking through the database and said "every time this player sits down to play, this other player is already at the table". They went on to identify both as MIT students. They never got into that real part about a spit second team that may have ratted out the members of the first team.

So that getting caught was different, in the movie, it was based on the spotter being seated at the table and that is not how that version of MIT team operated. Mickey is right and I had forgotten that this WAS how Ken Uston's team was identified in the "Big Player" 15 years earlier. So they took that from the Uston book and put it into the movie "21" when it wasn't accurate. Good catch Mickeycrimm.

Now I don't know what it is that Rob now wants? He sounds like LarryS, wanting to have some kind of debate competition. I didn't join or participate on these forums for some debate club competition. I simply explained some of my experiences, in this case, how I applied the tracking a second table when conditions were favorable to do so. I take no credit for this approach or technique at all, as I don't most things I learned and applied, some with my own twist. Although I may not have known it at the time I started, this is something that has been going on in different forms for decades by different teams and experienced players. It really is only a slight variation of the Uston Big Player method of a spotter playing and calling in the big player, the very method that they stole for movie "21" but wasn't accurate. The only difference is the player, me in this case is playing the role of both the spotter and player being called in basically.

I fully understand how non-blackjack players, like Rob and Alan before him think this would be difficult, but it really isn't for a short time, until you decide which table is the better opportunity. As soon as someone takes that position I know they don't have much, if any experience as a blackjack player and specifically a counter.

So that is the way it is and was Rob. You can debate with yourself, whatever it is you think you want to debate. I am not going to continue to go over this crap a million times when there is nothing that will convince you of anything, because you have already made your mind up that this can't be done. You basically are picking up where the late Alan Mendelson left off and he tried everything he could think of, including claiming x-ray vision needed when it was all non-sense because he had made up his mind, he didn't believe it.

 

Kew, I understood clearly what mickey wrote, and here it is in synopsis form: in the movie depiction of that MIT team that got caught, the method was extrapolated from Uston's story. Also, on GWAE, an MIT team member disclosed that there was basically nothing in the movie that was accurate.

See how simple it is? My questions were also simple and not a trick. You say the movie got it wrong. Additionally I asked where I could read about it and possibly find out what method they actually DID use when they got caught, and I got the usual kew-essays with no definitive answer. Thanks to mickey, I now have one of the answers. I suppose re-asking you where I can read about exactly how they were caught would hurt your feelings further. So I won't.

You've already been pardoned. There's no need to continue on with this discussion unless you can lead me to any publicized info explaining how that team got caught. This isn't some type of gotcha, this isn't some LarryS neurotic double-talk, and this isn't intended for you to lose sleep over. It's just a simple question.

 

Rob, I am sorry that my explanations are sometimes even usually long-winded. I am not great at expressing myself in written form. I know that agitates many. I do the best I can.

I don't know where you can go to read the various discussion on the movie. What I do remember is there were discussions of the inaccuracies and there are more than I have mentioned. I mean this was 14 years ago. So just by the timeline, I was on my first forum blackjackinfo or BJinfo, at that time. It was before Norm's forum, so it wasn't Norm's forum which began in 2011. I joined BJ21 about that time, so there may have been some discussion there as well, but I think there was extensive discussion at BJinfo and that is what I am referring to.

Now the problem with BJinfo, which exists today is that it closed in Dec 2011 and lay dormant for a few years, until the name was purchased by that same outfit that bought out Shackleford and owns WoV / WoO. So they bought the name BJinfo and brought the forum back (with much less traffic), but I am not sure the archived part from the previous owner was included in that purchase. I think, not sure, but think they just bought the name. So I am not sure you or me or anyone could even find archived discussions from that time period.

Other than that I am just not even sure what point you are trying to make. I guess you want to dispute that I said how they portrayed it in the movie is not how they got caught. I think mickeycrimm just confirmed that, so why is this even continuing?

 

Now I have a question for you Rob? (should I use Rob Singer or Rob Argentino? Which one is the one that tells the truth while the other pretends something else?)

So when I got to VCT, there was a group of members there, you, Alan, coach belly, Blackhole, I think LarryS for a short while, maybe someone I am forgetting, that I call anti-AP. I think it was mickey that put that label on first. This group, you included, argued with the various AP's on that forum at the time, Mickey, Axel, jbjb, I think RS_ was there, i am sure I am forgetting a couple. Doesn't matter what any AP claimed, you guys seems to challenge and argue.

Would you describe yourself as anti-AP? Don't like AP's and their claims of math based winning?

 

When I came into the scene in 2000, I had issues with the motives of many of those who commercialized the method, and it grew from there. But I'm not nor have I ever been "anti-AP". As I've said, in 2004 I chose to take controversial positions about AP's in public, as a way of dealing with how to continue on with my "character in the VP world" while I was dealing with the very serious and personal DU play issue. It put a strain on me thru 2019 that few will ever understand. Today, I consider myself an NFL sports betting AP. For the next 7 weeks anyway.

 

Ahem...

I googled "How did MIT team get caught?" and the very FIRST entry was:

"These members were replaced by fresh players from MIT, Harvard, and other colleges and companies, and play continued. Eventually, investigators hired by casinos realized that many of those they had banned had addresses in or near Cambridge, and the connection to MIT and a formalized team became clear."

No idea as to the veracity of the claim...

 

Let me start with the next 7 weeks and get that out of the way. What is your record? about 70% now? I don't know. so you need 2 out of 3, maybe 23-12 for the remaining picks to hit your mark? Maybe I am off by one, since I don't know what your current record is. Possible. I don't think it is going to happen and wont bet on or against your picks, but it is possible, because you have managed to do very well, to this point. You seem to want more attention about your current pick's position than you are getting here, so why don't you go back to VCT and engage with Druff, where you will get more attention.

Now the reason I asked if you would classify yourself as anti-Ap and I thank you for being honest is because here is my take on me and you and Alan, who obviously is not here to defend himself.

I showed up at and started posting at VCT in 2017. My profile says 2016, as that is when I created the account, but I didn't start posting there until mickey suggested I do, when many of us left here in 2017. So I showed up and sort of introduced myself (axelwolf announced the gay part). I have always felt and again, Alan is not here for me to ask this of, but I have always felt that you and Alan in particular really took issue with my age, in addition to that I was an AP, making a living via card counting. It was obvious to me that you guys were anti-AP (whether an act on your part or not) and here is this guy, mid 30's younger than almost anyone on the forum, claiming to have made a living for 14 years at the time (19th year now). I mean you probably would have argued and fought with me anyway, just being an AP, but I have always felt like my age aggravated you both even more. Am I wrong about that?

So it just so happens that the very first thing I shared was tracking two tables, and you and Alan in particular jumped on me and have never let that go. Alan, may he rest in peace, was really obsessed with it.

 

I think that is correct, as to how they were able to identify players, But in the scene, they used a player, the spotter being at the table and calling in the big player was not accurate. Spotter and big player did not play at the same table. Probably because that is how Kenny Uston and team got caught. The MIT team in the 90's had players spotting from behind the tables. This also allowed them to spot more than one table at a time.

 

Below is an article from blackjack apprentice about Andy Anderson (griffin agency) and the MIT team as portrayed in the movie. I am not a big fan of BJ apprentice guys for other reasons, but take note of paragraph 5 beginning with "While Mezrich’s novel was admittedly a work of fiction" down through "While the character’s actions in the book are largely fictional".

I don't know why they depicted the spotter AT the table rather than behind. I guess they needed some easy quick way to explain how they linked players, so they used that from the Uston book and days. But it is not accurate.

The Griffin Book - Blackjack Apprenticeship

 

OK, for me the subject is closed. The movie is based on a true story, as so many are, with the Director adjusting the facts as he sees fit for entertainment or other purposes.

Ozzy, if you're reading, let's hope you were fibbing about betting the other sides of my picks

 

No I wasn't Rob. I'm taking an absolute shellacking due to you're sports betting prowess. Will not underestimate in future.

 

Of course as usual, the UNKewl one declares that he is done, and then comes back with a torrential flow of more posts on the same and other subjects.

The UNKewl one declares, once again! that he is DONE at a forum: there is just no reason for me, or anyone for that matter, but I will only speak for myself, to participate here any more. Absolutely no value of any kind.

and then a mere hour later, posts again!