Casino How many members in here actually gamble in a Casino?

Yes, I’ve had my share of wins and losses of all different ranges from huge to peanuts throughout my adult life. Most of the people I hung out with were all business people and we all thought our shit didn’t stink. We all had the fancy homes / cars, and enjoyed being treated like royalty when arriving in a limo provided by any of the many (actually three) different casinos we visited in AC.

Five Star RFB, transportation, and shows feed perfectly into our belief of personal royalty. Trust me when I say we weren’t any European Sheiks, or Movie Stars, or Whales, but we were very high on the casinos list of wanted gambling ass holes that probably feed more to their bottom line when combined then the occasional crazy heavy hitter that visits.

When hosts would jump ship and change jobs, what they would offer us to go to their new casino was always a special occasion. Of course I’m certain there were signed documents that would prevent employees from doing this, but it’s obvious they were willing to take that chance. That’s when we would get the true sample of real over the top royalty treatment. (At least for that first visit)

In our little tight group of Kings and Queens none of us would ever admit we had gambling issues, simply because we had the money to lose. But, looking back now I would say we all had gambling issues. Of course living life in the fast lane for a weekend or week was always treated as reward for our hard working earned livings.

Yet, us guys would always be reading books and talking different strategies about whatever game we presently were involved in when not playing them. We thought we mastered BJ, but of course none of us mastered card counting. After being convinced by combined loses after years of efforts we then moved onto craps. Again, mastering several different alleged systems we continued to pay dearly for our royalty treatment. I must admit we gave a good show at the crap tables. We would be barking out all the action plays shaking and baking the dice like we had rubber arms. That was until we thought we could control the dice by setting them up first with controlled tosses. Eventually we renamed craps to shits and moved on. We must have tried every roulette system ever spoken of and some before giving up on that. Not one of us ever learned how to spot a biased dealer or table, and this was when those tactics were still vulnerable. We then moved on to Baccarat. We played so much Baccarat I started speaking oriental words and was dreaming of monkeys. This all took place over a period of 20 years and that’s not a typing error. We must have given each game equal opportunity in time (years) before giving up on one.

We eventually grew up or smarter with age and started to realize how much what now would be considered foolish obsessive behavior. Living life in the fast lane and surviving it is an accomplishment in its own. All of us today are still close friends. We’re all what would be considered seniors today and all now could be labeled grandchildren baby sitters.

Only me and another of the group got into live poker about 10 years ago and totally no longer play table games, except maybe on a rare occasion while playing a poker tournament and for a fraction of what we once risked. I realized I can’t play BJ or Baccarat for $25.00 a hand and have fun, cause even after winning a hand that amount just don’t have any thrill. Roulette I just can’t even stand looking at anymore. So if we play in the casino it’s usually craps / shits, since a $500.00 buy-in can buy some reasonable action for a short period of time. We’ll also go after some video poker and just hope for luck with no intentions of considering long term expected results. So with my 20 years with the group and now 10 years of poker, I guess I’d be considered of having 30 years’ experience in casinos.

I cashed several times in poker tournaments. Two times I cashed low 6 digit winnings and both not even winning the tournament. So close to the huge pay day but just can’t seem to get there. I play only tournaments because I just don’t want to get into the grind (time needed) of cash play.

I had a wild time but do regret not getting into poker earlier than I did. With a good gambling game poker earlier on would have been much easier pickings then it is today.

I spent Saturday and Sunday morning at the Borgata this weekend with my buddy and no wives playing the deep stack challenge. Twelve and a half hours of work to finish 23rd but needed 18th to get paid. Yet, only 22 players from a 20k win. For a $400.00 dollar investment I felt there was a better chance of reward rather than risking it in the casino. After getting knocked out I lost $100.00 dollars playing video poker in 10 minutes and went to my out of pocket paid for room. It’s a strange feeling going to casinos now and being treated like a bum. My buddy who was a higher roller then me gets treated just as bad. They have no idea today who there actually treating like shit. Woke up, paid for breakfast in bed, and went home.

When I am in casinos today, I’m always looking for these alleged vulnerable AP slot machines I read about. I just don’t see it, and if there is I certainly can’t see enough to support the amount of claims we read about in these forums.

When I was heavy gambling I guess the difference was I wasn’t doing it for income. I always went with a number I comfortably was able to lose for the royalty treatment. It was fun living life like a big shot for a weekend. Foolish but lots and lots of fun. Coming home with a rare big win after a weekend was nothing more than the next trip already paid for.

I was lucky enough to make enough money throughout my life to support my family with an above average life, and still do today. I was even lucky enough to play the gambling game not being an alleged AP and come out in one piece without ending up homeless.

I’ve known and seen many people destroy their lives and their families over gambling. Some of the stories are some of the darkest things you heard of. This is why when I read all this nonsense about AP’ing today I get annoyed. I know things have changed since my days of playing, but I believe they became harder than ever to constantly get over on the casinos.

Everyone thinks Kewlj here is something special with his Black Jack career. Personally, I think the amount of money he could make counting cards is limited or he runs the risk of getting fired. (86’ed) So, his income is limited to what I would consider to be just an average life style. This is not a bad thing. Making any type of decent living today is a challenge for most people. If what Kewlj reports is true, it proves that counting cards could be done with long term success.

If you read Kewlj’s posts you would also be forced to consider up front that although this living is achievable, are you cut out for it in the long run, or would even want to be. Forgetting all this personal nonsense between WOV and Kewlj, I find his BJ posts to be honest and sincere.

I find the slot machine AP stuff to be a little far-fetched. Not that it’s not achievable to make a living at it and maybe for the rare few a better living then Kewlj does at BJ, but that’s a hard pill to swallow.

If any of these slot games are beatable it’s obvious a flaw designed into the game from the programmers. This would explain why AP’s want these plays kept top secret. Yet, we read about many of the flawed games being detected and fixed today. Just how many games out there are carelessly being designed over and over again with flawed programming? Do programmers make the same mistake over and over again never learning from past mistakes? For the amount of alleged successful slot AP’s out there, even to the point of hiring people to play these faults; just how many faulty programs are out there? Counting cards, biased tables, biased dealers, magnetic dice, sleight of hand, card sorting, and on and on has all became history. They’ll always be crooks, cheats, and smarter people that find things others can’t, but the field is getting shorter and shorter.

I think a younger person just finding out about gambling is being misled by most of the AP stories of success they could read about today. All they read about is the promising money to be found, and no facts about the lifestyle that would have to be tolerated in order to do it. Certainly AP’ing with a secure future is not a guarantee. I know, I know, nothing in life is guaranteed, but hundreds of millions in the USA made it with security. How many of these people were AP’s I’m not sure. From what I’ve read it appears to be the same small group of about 20 people that insist they are killing it Ap’ing.

That is why I have trouble believing in it. If there was a way to consistently beat any game (pick your game – horses, casinos, etc.) the game couldn’t and wouldn’t exist.

Yes, I sucked up and enjoyed pretending to be a big shot in the casinos. Yet, in reality little did I know how I was played for the fool. Besides, if I knew a way to beat the casinos consistently back then I never would have known what it's like to be treated like royalty. Instead, I would have been thrown out.

 

Blackhole, it seems like you haven't read a damn thing I've written and keep spouting off the same bullshit as always. There is no "consistent" game to be beaten by AP's, at least slot/VP AP's. Well, there are a few that can be beaten straight up, like FPDW, that have +EV if you follow the proper strategy. Similar concept applies to card-counting in blackjack, where you beat the game straight up and make your money on the game itself.

Gaffed machines are rare. I've only come across one, that I can think of, but it's not even +EV. And, I don't even know if you'd consider it gaffed or not. AP's, typically, don't make money "beating the machine", as in, they have +EV every time they play. Rather, AP's make money from promotions or marketing offers.

I wouldn't recommend anyone to quit their job and dive head first into AP. I haven't seen any other AP's recommend that or allude to that, either. If anyone is interested in AP, I'd recommend they keep their job, and learn AP on the side, do it recreationally and as a hobby / extra income, assuming the person has extra money to spare, since there is risk and it's not a guarantee. If after a while (at least 2 years IMO?), they find out they're good at it and enjoy it, do well, etc. and are confident they can continue making money at it, while having a back-up safety net in case things go south....then they may consider doing AP professionally / full-time. Getting into AP certainly isn't easy. You either gotta be really smart (street smart) and have outside-the-box thinking to do it on your own....or get to know other people that'll take you under their wing and teach you...otherwise, you won't have a single idea of what to even look for.

 

its not hard to figure out how many guys are pros and play in consistent basis , i wonder how someone can be in a casino and at the same time trolling around forums ,posting ....

 

So what are AxelWolf, WON, Darkoz, MC, etc. etc., always bragging about. Darkoz makes more then his lawyer, WON deposited profits even in the W.T.C. There are many other brag about success stories. Are they full of crap?

 

AxelWolf even put a help wanted ad on WOV, looking to interview people willing to play the plays with his money for a share of the profits. That doesn’t sound like an AP waiting for promotions or marketing offers.

I have no argument playing promotions and marketing offers for profit. That’s one of the only things that make logical sense. Flying across the country to make maybe a thousand dollars on a promotion certainly doesn’t sound smart. Yet, there are too many unproven claims across many different forums of gambling success stories.

It’s the young struggling people who stumble across this bullshit who easily fall victim to the unproven myths that annoys me.

 

It's the children. Who'll watch out for the children?

 

That's pretty much all it is -- marketing offers & promotions.

We can't be in multiple locations at once. Can't scout every casino all the time. Lots of work to be done, not necessarily all gambling.

Why would you think a promotion is only worth $1k? Or why anyone would fly across the country for $1k? Some promotions can be extremely lucrative and have been quite lucrative. There's a reason no one flew to PA last weekend -- it wasn't worth it.

AW, WON, DarkOz, MC are not full of crap....at least in the sense that what they do will make them money. I don't know about all of MC's stories, DarkOz making more money than his lawyer, WON and the WTC's.....but there is definitely a healthy amount of money to be made, doing what they do.

 

I have no idea why AN "AP" would go on public message boards and crow about their success, or crow about the success of others.
On the one hand they claim that casinos monitor websites like this, but then on the other hand have no problem bragging about their conquests, or shining light on a possible good future conquest.

There is even a recoomendation by RS telling people what to do if they want to be an AP. You know keep your day job, start out slow...blah blahblah

You know what.....why would an AP want to have alot of little green APs out there, possibly opening their mouths and killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
It doesnt make sense. The more APs out there, the more reason casinos have to reduce promotions

I would think that a logical thinking "AP" would quietly make their money, and not bring attention to themselves, and certainly would not encourage others to try it out.

Sit on the beach, by day, make your profit at night into the morning...without a peep to the world.

The fact that there are entire sections about 'APs" on message boards makes life easy for the big casinos. They are serving to the casinos all they want to read on a silver platter.

And one last comment. Dont people think these multibillion casinos have the best and brightest math minds looking over their promos?..you know, screening them for possible exploitation. Are they so uncaring about their money that they consistently create these opportunities for AP players?

 

That was kinda what I thought regarding your dislike for AP. You're someone whose spent 30 years in the casino meanwhile reading books or online trying to master different games but haven't found the keys.

That was kinda what I thought regarding your dislike for AP. You're someone who's spent 30 years in the casino meanwhile reading books or online trying to master different games but haven't found the keys to actually make money.

I actually wrote something very similar to what RS said it's sitting in a saved draft queued up in a different tab I was actually going to give you some examples however I figured it's not going to help and you won't believe it anyways. For you to completely understand one would have to give you a complete and breakdown and play by play. If you found a place that sold gold or silver 20% below spot at limited quantities would you tell someone where and how just because someone didn't believe you?
IIRC someone told people privately about a play based on a system loophole just to prove something. That wasn't smart IMO for many reasons. It was fairly easy to guess what he was doing because of the information he gave online. Honestly I think it's going to have negative consequences. People already found that persons identity and picture. I have a feeling he works for/with someone or a group and whatever he makes isn't enough to discourage him from wanting to write a book and trying to cash in.

Now please show me where I'm constantly bragging? I rarely talk about plays or money and I don't post up pictures. I have have also disputed outrageous AP claims. Yes I have defended AP as a valid viable source of income for the right people. You can dispute AP(s) that all you want however there's enough examples of plays and people who do it. Yes some people are inflating numbers and making shit up.

 

I’m not bitter about being a loser after 20 years of playing losing games. Reading books, systems, web sites, always trying to play the games at the premium level in turn reducing and slowing down my loses is the sensible thing to do. This helps extend bankrolls giving a person more plays for the same buck and a better chance of getting lucky. It wasn’t about finding keys trying to unlock the golden goose’s ass. You guys invented that. We were only doing what was common sense. Of course we always had the hopes that we could figure something out and eventually own the casino. Unfortunately, gamblers while gambling have not much more then hope going for them. Eventually you come to realize those awesome buildings and casinos weren't built paying winners.

Isn’t this what the wizard of odds web sites are solely based on? Its main concept is to teach people how to lose slower buying more plays improving your odds for luck. And if you do get lucky and keep playing you’re still going to go broke. Mr. Wizard himself is a testament to that. It as to be obvious that when he went broke and begged for donations his AP and math talents were of no help. In fact if anything his AP and math talents had him believing he could beat the casinos, but eventually he instead was forced to beg. I was surprised that the AP’s that frequent his sites didn’t offer to take him under their wings and show him how it’s really done.

It’s not that your bragging outright, it’s just the way when you post, you always speak as if you’re the master of that universe. Maybe you are the one?

 

I wouldnt even publicly post that some place like that even existed....because either others may figure it out..or the seller might tighten up their pricing policy especially if they didnt realize you were taking advantage of movements in the market before they were aware of it.

So no......just keep buying the gold, and fill your bank account....and dont say a word. You dont need people to know how clever you are. Its more important to make the cash and preserve the continuing chance of making that cash.......and that is done by totally shutting the fuck up. Thats what normal people would do. Its more important to quietly make the money, than to announce "look at me" and risk losing the opportunity going forwaed

 

"Omg AP isn't possibleeeeeeee"
AP: "here's a vague example, maybe that'll make sense"
"Lol u so stoopid y even post dat? Just shut up n make money don't talk aboat it"
AP: "yeah, and we pretty much don't talk about it"
"But u post pictures and talk about it n stuff. Btw I've been a loser in a casino for forever trying to figure out how to win. But AP isn't viable"

AP: alriiiiiiiighty then........

 

I was going to get someone from the local 2nd grade to translate your post but skools out for the summer.

Aren't you the ones who flag posts whenever someone mentions a slot machine that may pay out a few extra pennies?

Aren't you the ones who were suspended by daddy manboy for doing just that?

You left out the best advice that APs always give. Don't give up your minimum wage job while APing. You just might have some bills to pay.

There will be a lot of *cough* APs in the casinos next week...especially in the casinos that cash welfare checks. They do a great service.

Keep playing until you get that "free" buffet. That's what separates the real APs from the wannabees.

 

Back in the day luck, card counting, and outright cheating was pretty much the only chance of winning. The machines being used today would have looked like something from Mars back then. Everyone was looking for ways to beat the tables. Slot machines back then was considered designed for the dreamers and girls. I can’t even remember how many years I played in casinos without ever putting as much as a nickel in the slots.

Its obvious guys like you RS need to always insist how today you make money AP’ing. Good for you, and I wish you great success.

Most of us throughout the years made our money working hard and the real gambling was done by investing. Our high rolling gambling was exactly that, gambling. It was treated like a luxury simply because it was fun and we could afford it. Of course we wanted to win and tried our best to win every time we went, but it didn’t matter because we already had the money. It was nothing more then our cocaine back then. Stop trying to make it sound like our futures depended on winning in casinos.

We didn’t wait for programmers to make mistakes when designing slot machines, figure out a bug when hitting buttons in a certain series on today slot machines, or for a promotion that could make us money for a day or two. That would have been considered petty if not completely ridiculous back then, and for what I think that opinion still holds water today.

Can you please explain to me how the Wizard of Odds one of the alleged AP experts was forced to beg for money? Regardless what investment went bad, AP’ing at least should have prevented him from begging. What happened there? This was the true Master of the AP Universe.

Besides, even if one does make the big hit like Phil Ivey did with the card sorting thing the casino still screwed him. Guys my age just can’t phantom banking on a casinos behavior and decisions for a future.

So, you and your minions just keep flying all over the country hunting down your promos and slot machine flaws until I guess the stupid casino owners and operators stop giving you the opportunity’s. Hope for your sake that day never comes.

Good Luck since it sounds like that is one of the main ingredients for your future. ” LUCK”

 

Blackhole, again, it appears you haven't read a thing that has been written. AP's don't look for poorly programmed machines with bugs in them or some magical sequence.

As far as Wizard, I don't think he's a professional/full-time AP. I don't know what he does, but it doesn't seem like he does AP as his main source of income, rather, as a hobby and recreation.

Not sure why you think back in the day the only way to win was luck/cheating/card-counting. I wasn't doing this "back in the day", but as far as I know, it was way more lucrative back then than it is now.

Not sure why you say something about us trying to make it sound like your future depended on winning in casinos. You do realize, these are GAMBLING FORUMS we're on, right? So yeah, those of us who do this for a living are going to take it seriously.

And no, I'm not pushing for anyone to start AP'ing. But, if someone is interested in AP, I would not recommend he dive in head first. It'd be awesome if most AP's today simply quit.....more EV for me. But, that's not gonna happen.

 

BH, I don't have promotions and mailers to work. I have a few faulty meters to work but the bulk of what I do is working temporary advantages. The only way I can explain it to you without giving up information on my plays is to create a hypothetical situation.

The little Honky Tonk Casino has about 100 machines. There is only 1 game on these machines, a 2-spot keno progressive. The bet is $10.The progressive starts at $150 and the meter runs at 4%.

It's a busy day in the joint with most of the machines getting action. The poppies are coming and going, playing for a half hour or so then leaving.

BH, can you come up with a strategy to exploit the situation? This is where the crux of the matter is. Can you think outside the box? I can....and so can axel and rs.

First we are going to do some math.

80X79/2X1 means there are 3160 two-spot combinations when there are 80 balls in the jug.

20X19/2X1 means there are 190 two-spot combinations out of the 20 numbers drawn.

3160/190 means the frequency of a 2-spot is 16.63158.

At reset the 2-spot pays 15 for 1 ($150).

15/16.63158 means it's a 90% base game with a 4% meter.

What is the average cost to produce a 2-spot? The frequency (cycle) is 16.63157 and the bet is $10. So the average cost is $166.

So what am I going to do in this spot, BH? I'm going to stand back and watch all them ploppies. Everytime one of them gets up I'm going to check the meter on that machine. If the meter is high enough I'm going to play it off until I hit the 2-spot.

The standard play is I'm going to play off any meter at $166 or higher. That would be a 4% meter win or $6.65.

But by the math of the situation I know I'm going to get much better plays than that. Per the long run you will average hitting the 2-spot every 16.63158 games. But per the short term you will hit in one cycle or less only 65% of the time. There is a 1 in 7 chance it will take you 2 cycles to hit it. And a 1 in 20 chance it will take you 3 cycles to hit it.

A lot of them ploppies are going to miss it for 2 or 3 cycles and get up and leave me some big fat numbers.?

In this spot I would be looking to get in 40 or 50 plays a day. That would mean I'm making some pretty good money. Axel and RS would work this play the same way as me.

I'll have more to say on thinking outside the box when I get home in a few days.

 

PS: In the above situation I would be making some money. But the house would still be making money to. That's the beauty of the situation. I would only be on a machine for less than a minute average. Then the machine is back open for the ploppies.

 

BH I have no Idea what you mean by back in the day. I'm probably not as old as you, I started when I was very young, in my very early 20's. Sorry I was one of the few to figure it out so early in my life and yet some have been playing for 30+ years and still dont get it.

When I started there was VP machine (ask Mickey crimm he will verify what I'm saying) that was 133% overlay. The overlay was not straight through. It averaged $25 -$45 per hours depending on the location and competition. They had this game in many, many locations. The house didn't lose money because it was based on a ploppies triggering a bonus. Smart players only played during this bonus, during the bonus it yielded a 133% edge(almost impossible to lose given 20 hours of play). The bonus came up frequently and you could get out many hands during a day. At the time this kind of system was all the rage and it was adapted into other VP machines and even slots. One location had this type of machine for many years, because it was very profitable for the casino. Many AP's got tossed out because they were too obvious. Others who played smart didn't get any heat. Especially since they figured out some not so obvious advantage plays, ones that made them look like big players. IE a $5 Video poker progressive that became +EV. Perhaps one person lost 10k on the good pay, meanwhile another player won 20k. If they were partners the there was a profit for both. The loser had free reign to play heat free at the 133% bonus games while the competition got 86'ed. While some stuff faded out other stuff came up, Some people adapted others didn't. Over the years thins change and people adapt and figure out more complex plays and situations, many people didn't. Lot of AP's are one trick ponies. Someone said if casinos ended free play they would be done. That's insane as far as im concerned because that's only a part of AP. You have no clue what people play or whats possible you only have information you read about.

Do you think Phil Ivey was the first and only person to do ede sorting? That shit has been going on since the 90's. How do you think he learned it? There's
many lucrative different things you have no clue about. Not everything gets discussed because only a few know about it.

The truth is... you can't believe you missed it, especially over the 30 years of playing and investigation you dedicated. That's a tough pill to swallow, especially when some punk kid figures it out in a short period of time.

PS bugs are few and far between 99.99% of AP's never find such a thing.

 

Axel, the flush attackers prayer:

"Lord, please send us some more flush attacks and we promise we wont piss the money off on stupid stuff this time."

 

The lord did send us more flush attack it was just called something else and worked differently. out with FA in with Visions. Combine new machine plays with promotions and whatever comes up there's plenty of opportunities. Someone might say the games and generous promotions were better in the 90's and that would probably be true. But one must remember they didn't have free play then. Some things dyed up while other opportunities bloomed. Lets not forget early 2000's when internet casino bonuses and promotions were stellar. Not to mention Party poker and other online poker rooms where many people made a small fortune. Blackhole doesn't get it and that's fine. I don't understand stock's but someone is making a shitton while others lose their asses.