Misc Is there such a thing as a "professional" gambler? Are Advantage Players "professionals"?

If Charles Manson ever was released from prison....he could call himself a "professional poker player"....a "professional writer" ....but he could never self proclaim himself to be an RPH, MD, police officer, lawyer, credentialed teacher, engineer, .

I dont agree with Mr V.
Money has nothing to do with being a "consummate professional". A doctor can open a new practice and lose money for the first 3 years as he gains patients. However he can treat patients well, devote alot of time in the exam room, make great diagnoses and devise great treatments for patients ......all while losing money. But by being the consummate professional he builds a practice. Same for attorneys , pharmacists, et al.

If you can simply declare yourself a "professional"....then you are not truely part of a profession. Its just a declared moniker you give yourself. Its fluff....total bullshit. It waters down the term"profession".

Just use this as a guide.....If your average murderer, child molester, severely mentally retarded person....can say they are a "professional" in what they do for a living.......chances are.....its not a a profession...they are just self proclaiming a bullshit title.

Thats like me calling myself a "teacher".......just because I can inform seniors about their meds, pro bono once a month at senior homes.....but I have taken no class in teaching. I have not read up on teaching techniques/...I have no teaching credential.....I am not a fucking teacher.
That is not my "profession". I would never think of myself as the "consummate professional" in teaching. That would just be self aggrandizing.

There are people who own and work at their own Jiffy Lubes.....they can do oil changes very adeptly on all cars. They have very good and specific knowledge to do their jobs well and make alot of money. That does not make them "professionals".

The jiffy lube owners might make more money than the average real professionals.......but its not about money.

Charles manson....can own an oil change business......and he can be successful . But he can never be part of real professions that have an over-seeing body that sets standards.

I can take a 3 hour course, and call myself a glass blower, I can without any other education, call myself a writer, and a poker player.........and to really pat myself on the back even harder...I can put the word "professional" before those activities..

 

Then maybe you should read the part where I said "Perhaps Consummate professional isn't the term to use here", in my attempt to give you an idea that there's a huge, driving difference between what guys like Axel and myself might do, and what some buffalo hunter might do.

You're arguing that its absurd to be viewed in such a way to be viewed as professional, I'm arguing that its absurd to be viewed as some kind of oozling scraping about the casino floor.

 

Not true. You have to show a profit 3 years out of 5 or the IRS will take away your professional status. If that happens you can't write off business related expenses.

 

Mr. V, "playing advantage slots for a living" sounds pretty easy. It sounds like any Tom, Dick and Harry could do it. But it's not that simple. There is a lot of prep work that has to be done. My major skill is combinatorics. I can calculate payback percentage and write video poker strategy for any payscale that exists, using nothing more than a pocket calculator and scratch paper. Not any Tom, Dick and Harry can do that. Now, why don't I just use an analyzer like Winpoker or Wolf Video Poker, one might ask. The answer is I do on most games. But take a look at the screenshot below then read what I have to say underneath.
The first time I layed eyes on this payscale I knew it was strong. Only a person with the requisite knowledge and skill could recognize this game as super strong. This particular game cannot be analyzed by any software on the market. I put the game at almost 14% advantage and wrote the strategy. Not any Tom, Dick and Harry can do that.

 

The Jackpot Aces game is so strong that I've never had a losing day playing it. I came close once but pulled it out. This game carries just a 50 cent bet and is worth about $70 an hour. Compare that to someone playing $1 10/7 DB with 1% freeplay, which a lot of AP's would consider to be a strong play. It's only worth $50 an hour and your money is taking multi-thousands in fluctuation.

The worst losing streak I ever had on Jackpot Aces was $800 through 5 hours of play. I thought it was going to be a losing day but then I started hitting the premium hands and wound up in the black.

 

Mickey, I don't doubt your ability to shake coins out of those machines.

I don't doubt that slot AP is both your avocation and your vocation.

I simply have difficulty thinking of you or any other slot player as being a "consummate professional." base on my personal definition of the term.

Serious, skilled and determined: you bet.

 

the govt doesnt dis-allow anyone from using the "professional gambler" moniker. No one is strippped of the title.
If certain criteria is not met...there may be dis-allowing of certain deductions. But anyone not employed in a real job can claim they are a professional gambler on the tax forms. ANYONE.....at ANYTIME

whether they can take full deductions based on past performance is irrelevant.

If I retire, and I win 2k at the slots on my first spin...and I dont bet again the rest of the year......I can call myself a professional gambler on my tax return......and declare the gain......no questions asked.......no one from the govt will question my "professional" title. Even if I rape 3 young dogs in the street on the way home from the win and get arrested. I can still call myself a professional gambler .

the govt doesnt give a shit.

being a professional has nothing to do with making money. Someone could be a financially unsuccessful professional.

 

And I agreed with some of that. I get what you are saying. Just because Joe Blow claims himself to be a professional gambler or whatever doesn't make it so.
However there doesn't have to be some special licensing, administration, board or whatever that determines if someone is a professional.
First Modern meaning: The noun "professional" takes on its current meaning of "one who
makes a profession or business of any occupation.

I think most everyone would agree that Stephen King is a professional writer as are many other lesser known writers. There's professional musicians, what determines that?

There's many other people in various non traditional fields, fields that don't come with specific qualifications and licensing. Certainly in many of those fields there are known professionals. Just saying so won't cut it, but there are various things that determine if that person is legitimate and if they would be considered a professional or not.

Perhaps A rhetorical because I'm certain you will say no because you're very predictable and you just don't like the fact that many of your detractors are making a living at something you can only do as a hobby.

Would you consider someone with many or all of the following qualifications a Professional? Most would A professional gambler IMO.
1)They need to mathematically show that they have an advantage and apply the methods and strategies needed to obtain that advantage.
2)They need to show a fair history of winning more than they lose (2 + years)
3)They need to make enough from +EV gambling to support themselves.

Other things that can help determine if in fact there's some merit to claiming your a professional gambler.
A)Witnesses that can verify you can and do 1-3.
B) The ability to teach someone the skill needed to become a successful gambler/AP themselves.
C)The ability to actually preform your methods and skill with witnesses repeatedly.
D)An agency such as Griffin and others that have considered you to be an professional gambler /advantage player.
E) Various State gaming boards who have identified you as a professional gambler/AP.
F) Casino's who have you documented as a professional gambler/Advantage Player, perhaps asking you not to return, sending you certified letters or in person officially trespassing you because you're an advantage player.
G)Others seeking you out for advice on advantage play.
H) Being offered work regarding your advantage play knowledge.
I) Being mentioned and regarded by many others as a skilled advantage player.
J) Providing work for others regarding advantage play
k)Other professionals both in your field and other fields that can vouch for you as doing 1-3 and can verify many of the other things mentioned above.

It's doesn't matter what YOU say, the fact IS it fits by definition of the word. And there ARE PROFESSIONAL gamblers/Advantage Players and its recognized by Supreme Court, other courts, the IRS, the media, the public opinion, the banking industry, experts in other fields, the casinos, books, magazines, gaming control boards etc etc. But most importantly among my Parents, friends, family, peers and my wallet.

 

Larry, you can't claim to be a professional gambler unless it is your primary source of income.

 

You want to bet?

 

He's just making ship up. I know people who have been rejected filing as a professional gamblers.

Larry is just mad he can't turn his hobby into a profession. Oh wait, NVM he did, it's called professional ball washing.

 

"consummate" That's kinda over the top. Doesn't that actually mean anel?

 

you guys got me thinking....am I a professional craps dealer or should I keep my amatuer status in case it gets in the olympics.

 

But that isn't really the issue.

Not to split hairs unduly, but I question the insertion of the word "consummate" before gambler.

def: "showing a high degree of skill and flair; complete or perfect."

To me, a consummate professional in any form of daily work, be it doctor, lawyer, dentist or contract killer must earn a very good living, or else they aren't worthy of being called "consummate."

 

Go pro, Appis.

Chicks dig it.

 

What's a good living?

Would a top poker player be considered a consummate professional poker player?

Where's the cut off?

I would definitely think that to become a SUCCESSFUL Advantage Player takes a significant amount of skill, discipline, knowledge and other various things. As in every profession there's different levels, skill, knowledge and people. Someone could be a fantastic attorney, but do a significant amount of drugs.

I wouldn't consider someone playing .25 FPDW all day a consummate professional. I personally would just call them an AP.

 

again your logic fails you.

I dont begrudge car mechanics from making a good living, or people that push buttons on slots. There are certainly non-professionals that make tons more money than me....and thats fine. I cant do what they do, I cant fix cars, I cant decorate cakes, I cant prepare a gourmet meal. So for those who can do those things....more power to them. Whatever the market bares.

If people in such jobs need the psychological boost of self proclaiming htemselves as "professionals".....they have that ability...no one is going to arrest them or strip them of their make believe title.

They can self proclaim themselves the title of professional.....and I CAN LAUGH AT THEM......its a equitable trade off

 

so does a successful video game player that hustles money playing others. He/she needs all those qualities.
So do male prostitutes..
So does throwing spitballs in gradeschool without getting caught
so do pool hustlers
so do process servers

very vague unmeasurable qualities,,,,,, Real professionals have those qualities but their skill and knowledge are often quantified and given a grade before accreditation...and in most cases proof of continuing education is a requisite to maintaining the professionalo status.