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Misc Is there such a thing as a "professional" gambler? Are Advantage Players "professionals"?

Discussion in 'Miscellaneous Gambling Forum' started by MrV, Nov 8, 2016.

  1. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

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    Anyone can call themselves a professional anything.
    Well the term has been used for hundreds of year. I have posted some before

    Other higher educated professionals aknowage professional gamblers dedicating books and studies. I'll take their word over a professional ball washers.

    David M. Hayano studied anthropology At the University of Illinois (M.A. B.A.) End of London School of economics And received his PhD from the University California Los Angeles in 1972 In addition of his study of professional gamblers He has conducted field research Is currently professor of anthropology at California State University.
    The Professional Gambler: Fame, Fortune, and Failure
    The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science.

    Vol. 474, Gambling: Views from the Social Sciences (Jul., 1984), pp. 157-167

    Road Through the Rain Forest: Living Anthropology in Highland Papua New Guinea by David M. Hayano (1990-02-03)
    http://www.nytimes.com/
    Books Of The Times
    Published: April 26, 1982
    By Christopher Lehmann-Haupt POKER FACES: The Life and Work of Professional Card Players. By David M. Hayano. 205 pages.




    Poker Faces: The Life and Work of Professional Card Players by David M. Hayano (1982-06-01)
    1715
     
  2. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

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    Professional wrestling.
     
  3. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    just because a sales department comes up with a catchy title for a book for a piece of entertainment like make believe wrestling....doesnt provide PROOF of your debate point,
    you have to recognize reality and separate out the fifth avenue advertising dept hype.

    I am sure I can find instances where professional shit cleaner was used somewhere....or professional ass fuckers in san francisco

    so you keep coming up with your professional references...and when you find gambling compares to real professions , having standards, codes of conduct, oversight, entry requirements......let me know.
    Lert me know who the gatekeepers for the profession of gambling are, who sets the standards and sets the codes of conduct. Who dismisses and revokes the title "professional" from gamblers that rape and kill and sell cocaine. Who disciplines them for the more minor offenses in the code of conduct and rules and regs of the "profession. What is done with the money from the license renewal. What proof of continuing education need br presented.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  4. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    Larry, I know this is just going to disgust you. In 1986 the U.S. Tax Court agreed that Billy Baxter was a "professional gambler." In 2008 the U.S. Tax Court ruled that "professional gambling is a trade or business like any other profession." This was their exact words. And there are 19 members of the court appointed by the President, no less.

    http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baxter_v._United_States

    Further, the IRS has written rules and regulations for attaining "professional gambler status."

    Larry, this is just horrible news. Since you are the one with the most cogent argument against there being any such animal as a professional gambler I think you should start your own case with the U.S. Tax Court against there being any such animal as a professional gambler. This travesty just cannot be allowed to continue.

    And you should also contact the IRS and explain to them very cogently that there can be no such thing as "professional gambler status" because there is no such thing as a professional gambler.

    With the very cogent arguments you put forth on this issue I'm sure the Tax Court and the IRS will eventually agree with you.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  5. nate

    nate Member

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    Case closed. Seriously.
    As far as paying taxes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  6. nate

    nate Member

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    The whole story of the tax thing is Baxter was used as a example for the irs to go after more taxes as baxter wasn't paying and was fighting this ruling. Considering the irs will go after 12 year old girls for not paying taxes, and I'm sure I can find an entry for professional golf ball divers too.

    Getting a tax rule that someone owes taxes on gambling doesn't necessarily make a person a professional. baxter set the mark.

    But I'm on the fence as I can see both sides a bit. In Larry's camp, gamblers have no trade unions, paid associations, no 4 year college, etc etc etc, nothing to officially be recognized as a 'certified professional' in the real world. In the Mick camp, just about everyone here gambles way more seriously than I ever can. Their experience in casinos and other venues are light years above mine. In that regard I would surely consider them a professional level at their endeavor. Notice I used the word endeavor. I think some people are having trouble identifying gambling as a trade like machining, eyeglass or photography trades.

    One can use the words occupation, job, whatever. But gamblers are self employed... mostly.
    Could a gambler who makes good money, works full time at gambling be considered a professional? Sure why not.
    Does a gambler have to pay taxes? Yes, because the IRS wants it's money from anyone.
    Is a professional gambler recognized anywhere else as a trade or profession outside of the IRS? Maybe not so much.
    Except for poker stars selling ball caps and sunglasses with their names on them, do AP's really give a rats ass if they're considered professionals at what they do? Probably not that much. Also, flipping out your professional AP gamblers card at MGM, the very same place AP's are trying to take money from probably wouldn't get you that free steak.

    This from wiki, so take it for what it's worth. Wiki can and is edited by the public.

    History
    William E. (Billy) Baxter, Jr., had been a gambler since the age of fourteen. For the tax years in question (years 1978 through 1981), both Baxter and the government agreed that Baxter was engaged in the activity of gambling as a "professional gambler."[1] The parties agreed that Baxter devoted a substantial amount of time to his gambling activity,[1] which was poker. Baxter was a pioneer in professional poker who later went on to win seven World Series of Poker bracelets. He was inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame in 2006. Between 1978 and 1981, Baxter claimed $1.2 million in gambling winnings.

    Background
    To Baxter, the 50% versus 70% maximum marginal tax rates meant the difference of $178,000. At first, Baxter refused to pay. His Certified Public Accountant, E.J. Maddocks, advised Baxter that to avoid potential penalties and interest, Baxter should instead pay the tax asserted by the government, and later sue the government for a tax refund.[2]

    The preliminary issue presented to the trial court was whether Baxter, as a professional gambler, was engaged in a "trade or business" for federal income tax purposes.[1] If Baxter was engaged in a trade or business, then his income would be taxed at what was then a maximum rate of 50% for "personal service income" (as that term was defined in the Internal Revenue Code at the time). If, however, Baxter was not engaged in a trade or business, the income would not be "personal service income," and the maximum tax rate would be 70%. The tax law at the time defined "personal service income" to be "earned" income within the meaning of what was then section 911(b) of the Internal Revenue Code.[1] The court noted that "if Baxter derived his gaming income actively from his expenditure of time, energy, and skill rather than passively from his use of his property, then his gaming income constitutes 'earned income'."[1]

    The trial court analyzed two alternative tests for determining whether an activity constitutes a "trade or business" for federal income tax purposes: the "goods and services" test, and the "facts and circumstances" test.[1] The government conceded that if the "facts and circumstances" test was the appropriate test, then Baxter's activity would constitute a trade or business, resulting in the lower tax rate and a lower tax liability.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  7. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

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    You want a professional gambler?

    OK, here ya go.

    [​IMG]

    Turtleneck, sport coat, polyester slacks and a smile that could stop a race riot: the REAL deal, people.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
    appistappis likes this.
  8. KewlJ

    KewlJ Active Member

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    When I was out and about today, I was thinking of this thread and topic (god help me as Larry has managed to wiggle his nonsensical discussions into my work time). I was going to mention the IRS, but that dang Mickey beat me to it. The IRS, has actually gone out of it's way in recent years instituting new rules and stipulations (and benefits) as to who can declare as a professional gambler. THAT really should say something about Larry's argument. He is unhappy with Oxford and Websters definition and he ignores that the federal government acknowledgement. He is just sort of living in an unrealistic parallel universe.

    And for what it's worth, Larry keeps mentioned "self proclaimed" in regards to this topic. I personally rarely if ever use the term "professional" in regards to myself. Maybe an occasional professional blackjack player, certainly never a professional gambler. I have made reference to that I am in my such-and-such year (13th currently) of supporting myself from blackjack or advantage play. I do say that with pride and don't care what Larry or anyone else thinks of it. The first time, I was referenced as a professional gambler was on paper, when my tax guy began declaring me a such. I never even thought of myself in terms of that phrase before then.

    Blackhole: Yes, I am proud of my achievements and having supported myself from blackjack/AP play for 13 years. I sincerely apologize if it comes across as "blowing my own horn". That is not my intent at all. I am pretty humbled in knowing that I am at the bottom of the AP ladder and my achievements and income dwarfted by many fellow APers. But I don't measure myself by other AP's. I measure myself against my own abilities and expectations.

    But I do take offense at your food stamp comment. I have averaged (almost exactly) 6 figures for 6 years now. Maybe that is food stamp numbers to you, but these results far exceed.....more than double what I expected when I started. When I made the decision to share my experiences it was pretty hard to do so without getting into some numbers, so I have liberally shared my results..'.all of them, what I like to say as the good, bad and ugly. Again, I apologize if that comes across the wrong way as some sort of boasting. I will try to be more recognizant of this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  9. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    LOL! MrV, this just goes to show that anyone can make it in this country. John Patrick writes to the masses and is a pretty good promoter of himself. Which I figure you had to be if you wanted any kind of decent books sales. It's a book for novices at best. Any serious student of poker is not going to buy this book. Because he is such a promoter he played under his own name on Poker Stars. I played against him occasionally. I rated his skills as about average.
     
  10. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    KJ is a fan of dictionaries....and according to the dictionary it means inhaling the generated gases from a cylindrical tobacco product.

    And I am a very aware of health issues from the smoke being a health PROFESSIONAL....so I repeat

    Every single fag should be smoked outside.
    No exceptions.....
    Its too messy to do it indoors.
    fags have been a burden on the health of society forever.
     
  11. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    Just WHAT i HAVE SAID ALL ALONG

    full time gambling is a trade.

    Anyone can put an ad in the paper claiming to be a "professional gambler" and offer seminars. And there is no one who can examine a license on file to verify such. There is no agency that can close him down. Even if he hasnt filed a tax return EVER as a"professional gambler". Because the tax reporting is only for "professional gamblers" with a net profit. And the term is created by some bureaucrat in an IRS office....they can label anything they want...how they want for their accounting needs. Doesnt make it true.....but makes it easy to understand.
    Its easier than calling it a "profitable gambling tradesman"

    The govt designationis just that....a label that some bureaucrat came up with to get more tax income for the federal coffers.

    Anyone and I mean anyone can get infront ofpeople and lecture about gambling and elevate themselves in their eyes by calling themselves "a professional gambler"....and it would be totally legal.
    But I cant get in front of people and give a lecture on dental hygiene....while telloing them I am in the dental, profession.

    thats the difference between real professions and fake professions.

    Gambling can be a "trade"...like cake decorating. Both trades ..there is no entry qualifications, no code of conduct, no rules and regs. no over-seeing authority enforcing these things...and there is no way for the public to verify the claim of belonging to the professed group.

    Even with the govt designation for collectng taxes....ANYONE....can declare that they are a "professional gambler" without any repercussions

    Yes point to the govt as being the great authority......the same govt that deemed women to be inferior and not allowed to vote, or deemed gay sex to be unlawful, and allowed segregation in public schools and in local business. The same govt that allowed the healthcare system to be fucked for generations to come even if trump fixes part of it, the same govt that had a monopoly on delivering mail..and now is billions in the red.
    And people point to the fact thatsome dude in an IRS office coming up with the tax collecting designation of :professional gambler" as meaning something special outside the 4 walls of the IRS.

    If enough people were making money from buying and selling beenie babies....the Irs would come up with the designation Professional beenie baby collectors.

    If enough people were making money from playing video games against each other...the govt would come up with "professional video game player" so they can collect their share.

    They would be in the same make believe profession as gamblers.

    not realizing that all the govt is doing....is giving them a nice title in exchange for their tax dollars.
     
  12. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    KJ
    I am sorry you find a perfectly fine use of a word to be offensive.
    As you have brought to our attention, there is a great use of the word "professional" in the same dictionary that I use. Its not the most common use of the word as its used in society....but it is a valid use of the word when trying to make a weak debate point.

    But I must say, as a health professional the smoking of fags is on the forefront of my mind...as it is for most health professionals

    Health professionals are conflicted though. We all feel that fags should not be smoked...they should rather be outlawed. But if fags are going to be around....then its best to smoke them outdoors.

    I wonder, are there professional fag smokers....you know contests like pie eating contests...but instead a contest where you get the grand prize for smoking the most fags.

    And if so....if someone makes a living doing that....would you consider that a profession KJ?

    I am sure if the govt got wind of it...they would make an IRS designation..."professional fag smoker" in order to claim taxes.
     
  13. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    Larry, you are so very good at ignoring certain facts as you put forth your argument. And one of those facts is a 19 judge panel, all of these judges appointed by the President of the United States, agreed that Billy Baxter was a professional gambler. You are a spin doctor from hell.
     
  14. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    they did not rule on the word "professional"///they dont fucking care if he is called professional gambler, or a full time gambler, or a fulltime tradesman gambler.
    they are making no ruling on the word professional...they are ruling on his requirement to pay taxes no matter what the fuck he is called.

    as long as he is required to pay taxes..he can be called president of the united states of gambling
     
  15. Exoter175

    Exoter175 Member

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    Its hard to define. I know there's not many in the machineAP world like myself, there's easily less 30 at my level across the nation, not sure about the rest of the world. But there's easily a few hundred that know a thing or two about one game or another that could easily lump them into the total number. I honest to god, do not believe there's 200 "professional" counters including teams in this country, but perhaps worldwide.

    Most casino "professionals" be it, MachineAP, TableAP, or what have you, ultimately make less than 10k/yr after expenses, and that's being wayyyyyyyy too generous to most of them. Guys like Mickey have a way of barely breaking even, so long as they can get free booze, and ultimately, that's not professional at all.

    Honest to god, KJ is one of the few APs in the world that I've ever looked up to, because he doesn't have that bragging attitude, the guy is completely humble all the time. A single conversation with KJ would probably change everyone's opinion of "professional" on this forum, and I've never actually met the guy, but I have that much praise for him. He's one of the few good guys with his head screwed on right in this "business" of ours.

    No the fuck you are not, have not, and will never be. Are you fucking kidding me Mickey? Its not just insulting to hear you bullshit your way about becoming one of the best Machine APs in Reno, but Nevada, the Country, and the Planet? Get lost you fucking drunk, the best APs on Earth move around more money than you've ever dreamed about in your life, and they sure as shit don't need to do it in a casino. What a fucking joke you are.

    On top of that, you're not even one of the best Machine AP's in the country, because you aren't even up to date on what's out there. I guarantee you I've made at least 10 times as much as you've made in the last 2 years, no doubt, and I'm willing to wager you haven't steadily cracked 60k/yr, much less 100k+ like myself, or fuck, like KJ over there's who has done it year after year after year.

    You, sir, are a fucking insult to the idea of AP. You're not "one of the best" in the world, you're not "one of the best" in the country, you're only one of the best in fucking Montana, a state with less than half the population of my Metro Area.

    Anymore nonsense like that and I'm going to have to put you on ignore, what a fucking joke. I know I'm egotistical, but I walk the fucking talk, Mickey, and even I won't make such a bogus claim as being "One of the best APs in the world". You don't even qualify as being a fly on that wall, Mickey.


    I've just about had it with this forum lately. You guys are so fucking disrespectful with your underhanded insults to honestly, one of the best APs in the gambling community.

    So what if he's gay? That's his private life, and if he wants to talk about it, so be it. You certainly have a right to an opinion, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD post it. This whole anti-gay rhetoric on this forum is getting bothersome, clearly you never had a mother teaching you "If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all", Larry. A professional certainly wouldn't be making these remarks.

    Back off with the homophobic remarks, Larry, you're losing face, as well as your argument now.

    I may not be gay myself, but I sure as shit know Right and Wrong when I see it, guys like you are the reason there's a divide all over this country.

    What a piece of shit, go cuddle in Montana with Mickey.
     
  16. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    there are times to feel giddy and gay.

    I would personally feel gay if I woke up tomorrow and fags didnt exist.No single fags, no packs of fags.....totally gone.

    I have a dream that one day the govt will round up every single fag, throw them in a big pit and set them on fire...a huge fag bonfire.

    The same govt that people trust to assign the moniker of "professional" to gamblers

    the people who get paid to do this task will be instructed to on their tax form, identify themselves a "professional fag igniters "

    Until that day we will just have to encourage smoking fags outdoors as a compromise

    there are cartoons, like Joe Camel...that even encourage children to start smoking fags at a very young age.

    All I can say is...do it outside.....not inside a place of business....outside...like outside a musical playhouse, or bathouse....NOT inside
     
  17. LarryS

    LarryS Compulsive Liar Compulsive Liar

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    The definition of a "professional AP". I don't know the answer and I have spent way too much time on discussions of the topic"""KJ
    REAL PROFESSIONS ARE NOT HARD TO DEFINE AT ALL.
    there are very specific parameters for being in real profession.
    Real professions are not in the eyes of the beholder...with rules and regs in the eyes of the beholder.

    There is no argument of what a real profession is.

    however the ones that arent ...everyone has some vague reason why they should be considered one.....its a moving target....no one can agree why its a profession..they just have a gut feeling that it IS a profession.

    they run to dictionaries, they site the IRS. .....but thats as far as they go
     
  18. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    And now you know what was in the judge's heads. What an idiot.
     
  19. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    More psychobabble blah, blah, blah from a low life hustler living in his momma's basement. And a goddammed coward on top of it. Whine, you little bitch.
     
  20. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

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    I get it, there are chataltans in evry field. Short of conning people, a non professional won't support himself gambling for long. Does he himself have any credibility?


    I didn't make up the term professional gambler it's been around for very, very long time. It's used by many credible people that are certified professionals. The Supreme Court has taken a stance along with the IRS and general public .
    It's not just gambling that is using the word professional in a way larry doesn't like.
    Professional writer, professional singer, professional wrestler, professional artist, dancer, pianist, magician, chefs, salesman, comedians.

    Some people who want to change the original and current meaning of the word professional. People need to change certain and categorize groups into various things like certified professionals, Independent professionals, consummate professionals.
     

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