Craps TABLE GAME MYTHS: People who practice rhythm rolling can beat the game of Craps.

By Bill Zender

About a decade ago, a group of dice players started publishing
articles and books about a dice rolling technique known as “rhythm
rolling.” The technique is accomplished by the dice shooter who
must set the dice, side-by-side, on a specific number pattern,
incorporate a special finger grip when picking up the set dice and
use a practiced arm swing to launch the cubes. If done correctly, the
dice will rotate as a single entity while traveling in the air, land on
the table at the same time while “glancing” off the wall of the table
and pinwheel away from the wall without rotating sideways. If the
shooter sets the dice side-by-side on the table with the one and the
six facing outward, in theory when the dice are tossed and glance off
the wall as a single unit on the same axis, it will reduce the number
of sevens rolled. Of course this throwing system would not be used
in this manner on a “come out” roll, but would be employed after a
point was established. These dice “experts” swear by this technique,
referring to it as “the card counting of the new millennium.” A
number of instructional classes are available throughout the
country, and hundreds of “rhythm rolling” enthusiasts have been
trained and turned out to inflict their skills on the casinos.


The casino industry is having a difficult time taking this technique
seriously, and it is correct in its skepticism. A number of these dice
control experts have been challenged by legitimate gaming and
mathematics experts, and the challenges have resulted in nothing
but excuses from the controllers. When asked to demonstrate this
rare technique, the dice controllers can’t seem to have the ability to
come through with a genuine performance. The main excuse is that
the technique involves the arm and muscle, and because the arm
would tire after 100-plus throws, there is no way the dice controllers
can produce an accurate sample of 1,000 trials. One thousand tosses
would be the minimum need to run a worthwhile statistical analysis.
In addition, no large craps winners have surfaced who used this
technique. You would think if the technique provided the shoot with
a 1 percent or 2 percent advantage, someone would be grinding a
major casino out of thousands of dollars!


The consulting firm Sunzeri Consulting analyzed the physical
mechanics behind the throw, and the physical properties of the
average crap table have thrown further cold water on the concept.
Its finding indicates that the dice, over a number of throws, will not
react to the action as described by the rhythm rolling experts. The
consulting firm claims that the actions the dice are suggested to
take are physically impossible. This analysis was conducted before
even considering the hardness of the surface of the table or the
effect of the diamond padding that lines the crap table’s walls (see
my article on,” Rhythm Rolling: A Dice Control Technique,” in Casino
Enterprise Management’s October 2005 edition).


The bottom line on this technique; keep your table surfaces hard
and your diamond padding new and let the players throw the dice
any way management sees fit. If the technique works, it will only
work for a handful of people who constantly practice the throw and
only on certain tables where the conditions allow for their actions to
have a chance of succeeding..

 

... but, but the Mad Professor told me it would work so there

 

.... and if you don't believe me, I read a fairy tale about a Captain that can sell more bumpers than Heavy

 

Hey Harley there is such a thing "as bumper bowling". Nah no relation to selling bumpers. Just sayin.

 

The bottom line is the dice do not stay on axis, once they hit the tables, these on axis DI schools are the ones making the money, not their students!

Here is one scenario that works for these schools, you take a bunch of guys that just paid really good money to take a class and then after going to a casino and paying their “AfterGlow Fee” someone get a good roll, these students are now convinced that it was because of the training they took that made it happen.

While at the same time someone on the table behind them is on a roll that never took a class . This shooter just picked up the dice for the first time in their life and just went pass the fifty roll mark. If asked about the shooter on that table, the instructors will say that the shooter is just getting lucky.

But their students are now skilled shooters after taking a class for a few hours and that is why the one shooter that had a twenty roll managed to do it. Do any of you see the correlation between to two tables?

One was lucky and one was skilled, I just hope that you were on the lucky table when that roll happened. When you pay money to take a class on becoming a so-called DI you are now considered skilled, you are no longer just a lucky shooter in your mind,... for you luck is now out of the question!

You as a so-called DI want to believe that you had the skill to beat the casinos and will now chase the dream all the way to the bank for the owners of these on-axis DI schools even paying those ridiculous “After Glow Fee” so you can fit into the good old boys society.

These new on axis, so-called DI's will defend the owners of these on-axis schools and their instructors on every DI craps board there is. The real truth comes down to one thing and that is all of the slow-motion videos that are now out there. And lets not forget all of the fiction that they use to sell their classes. Yes,... they need great fiction writers like the Madprofessor to sell what they are doing. So their students can dream of the day when they can go out and buy one of those high-end cars or eat in one of those fine restaurants that our great fiction writer is always writing about.

If you have to use fiction to sell your little hobby DI school what does that tell you? Then you have to think of one more thing that I will throw into the mix, these guys that have the little hobby crap school through their own admission are not even professional craps players they have their school as a hobby, to make their buy-ins, I guess!

Is there anybody you know in these videos?











https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXc2PXS114&index=12&list=TLPhC1SU9dvTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkU458iCDiY&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hheh7c6J77Y&index=34&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOOULZHKNo0&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NaIs8y_hE&index=37&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZf3jbjie0&list=UUfDRf2L1rCEgYtGFlS_z9ag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-R8XYUjhs&list=PL29EB7437F6533C12

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68pu1F0D_9g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_wQN7MELc

This guy found 172 videos on throwing the dice or dice control and put them all in one spot for your viewing pleasure and he surely saved me a lot of work! Just page down on the right side to see all of the videos he found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MrqyVrQWck&list=PL57YTXgE9UrKJJZsOGpdaFhWAEETRt-rU

Lets not forget the one guy that had the best set-up for dice control, Aaron Hightower who went the extra mile to try to prove that dice control either work or it didn't. I have to give him a high-five for all of the work he put into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2QS26ppbc8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBJwLtAORa0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSfu5QDDVA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM3qDV9Lz3Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTzwChYv0U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni-uMB17x4I

 

According to Bill Zenders Video



The Dice Controllers are simply trying to achieve a SRR of 6.5 or greater that will give them a edge of approximately 4%. According to the Dice Control Groups, it takes a lot of practice and recording up to a thousand of live casino rolls to see if your toss is Advantage or not.

The controversy here in is: Can this actually be achieved, and are those who make claims of having the advantage are honest with their tracking.

I know that by far, that very few Dice Controllers actually track their rolls. Those who make claims of having an SRR above 6 cannot show any proof of tracking or third party validation of their claims.

My own investigation of the Casino Management and Security shows that Dice Control is considered to be a myth. What the casinos are mostly worried about, when it comes to craps is: dealer theft of chips, dealers collusion with the players to allow cheating, and players stealing from other players.

 

My casino must have not took Mr. Zender's advice. The tables have so much bounce, when you put cash on the table it bounces off.

But really how is the so called 4% edge calculated, is that if you also use a perfect betting strategy, perfect money management, and bank roll size for that specific roll. If so who in reality has that combination?

 

exactly Rudy .... Dice control is a fairytale .... these Dice controller schools are hoping Disney will produce an animated movie about them

Unfortunately, there are just as many casinos as players that ignore the facts and still believe in fairytales

FYI - for reference, the Bill Zender article in the OP of this thread was written less than a year ago in August of 2014

 

Here is the link to the math to calculate craps edge

The 4% Bill Zender is talking about is on the Pass Line.

Here is the Wizards Statement on Dice Control

 

Contrary to Zender, I just read a study release that I thought proved DC theory.

"Theoretically the die throw is predictable, but the accuracy required for determining the initial position is so high that practically it approximates a random process," said Marcin Kapitaniak, a Ph.D. student at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland. "Only a good magician can throw the die in the way to obtain the desired result."
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2012-09-die.html#jCp​

I uploaded the study paper to my website, here: http://www.catalysthouse.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/dice-physics.pdf

Bottom line is that DC is VERY subjective and difficult to prove, and most practitioners may be deluded ...
... but is it possible? Yes.

 

So at the end of each roll are you required to say Ta Da, instead of snapping my fingers?​

 

I would say ... "See, it's all in the wrist!"

 

But, But, But....... Frank Scoblete says he is a controller of dice! He is pushing hard to sell you it! (Probably the last time he can milk this cow's excrement.) Pay your money to read his book!

 

I'm sure it's a fun read.

 

Maybe you should look at all of the slow motion videos I posted, then make up your mind. I tested dice dropping off a slide 6 inches then Rolling 6 inches, guess what there still wasn't any control.

These guys that are pushing the on-axis dice control thing attacked what I did, but they could not produce one video where their dice stay on axis from start to finish! The only thing they can do to counter anything that I say is to call me names.

 

OKAY - SUPERRICK -

" I " WILL PLAY YOUR SILLY LITTLE GAME -

" YOU " profess that On-Axis Dice Influencing - DOES NOT WORK -

Yet - YOU - Offer - NO ALTERNATIVE SOLUTION -

YOU Only criticize Others -

Without offering ANY viable alternative -

In MY Opinion -

YOU are WORSE than the Ones YOU criticize -

THEY have the Audacity to state a view / method -

Whereas - YOU - hide behind the curtain !

YOU have NO alternate solution to DI as it NOW stands -

YOU know IT - as well as others !

Why do you just NOT cease and desist with your incessant useless ranting -

YOU are THE DI - as - YOU - so readily and constantly admit !

Oh MY - DID " I " just ' Call YOU a Name " ! ?

$...eE..$

 

The "on-axis" theory is not absolute. The dice do not have to be on-axis for a person to have dice control skill. Dice can be coordinated. I cover this in my book Cutting Edge Craps: Advanced Strategies for Serious Players.

Some dice controllers will also be shocked (shocked!) that when (or if) they start getting on-axis ability their winnings actually plummet should they continue to use the Hardways set. Again I covered this in the above book. With on-axis ability a whole new world opens up. The SRR and the on-axis abilities are often opposite sides of the same coin.

I also examined super-super-slow motion videos unlike the slow-motion ones Superrick posted (okay, I will admit I only watched a few of Superrick's and they were quite bad). The dice of even good dice controllers do many more movements after hitting the back wall than when we talk about them in articles, books and classes. Again, many dice controllers, craps players and critics are not aware of this.

There is also one other element of which many dice controllers, non-dice controllers, and critics seem to be unaware --- many throws are indeed random. They will splay, bounce around too much (and so on) which takes away any control. If control were perfect there would be no seven-outs; if control were even close to perfect, there would be no casinos or no game of craps as we now know it. Dice control is a very, very limited edge. I've never written or taught anything else.

Just as blackjack games can vary from great to good to poor to awful, casino craps tables can indeed have an effect on how well a dice controller actually does. By analogy, there are some baseball stadiums that are conducive to home runs and some which are not. Table types do make a difference.

I will state again that there are two tests that can prove a shooter can control the dice; the above mentioned SRR test and the SmartCraps test, a test which deals with on axis control. One can have a good SRR and fail the SmartCraps tests (there are actually three of them); and one can pass the SmartCraps tests and have a low or even random SRR.

As for fairy tales, the players I write about are all real, just as Superrick, DeMango, Harley, and Rudy are all real...or, my word, maybe they are the same person posting under different IP addresses. Could that be the real fiction? These are all one person fictionalizing himself or herself as many people? (Actually I don't think it is but claiming something I write is fiction is exactly the same as me writing that these characters are also fiction.)

As for this Mad Professor, I don't know anything about him except for what Superrick writes on three boards I've visited. If Mad professor is on Heavy's site, I have not been allowed to be on Heavy's site so I will pass on talking about him.

In a future post I will discuss whether casino personnel believe dice control is possible and is being effectively used by some players. But lunch and then more work calls me.

[Oh, let me add: I saw Snake eyes roll in AC and he is the real deal.]

 

That's why I prefer the term DI over DC.
DI "pros" are only overcoming a -1.3% -EV (prior to taking odds)
The bottom-line is that DI is subjective and difficult to verify, but it clearly CAN be done.

 

$nakeEye$

The issue is that some people are marketing Dice Influence as an means that anyone can gain the advantage over the casino in the games of craps. Frank S, and many other gambling experts have stated clearly, if not many times, that while anyone learn this art of throwing the dice does not mean they will have an Advantage, if ever. It seems that darn few actually have enough talent and practice to make anything of this method. What I am hearing from the Dice Gurus is that most players who attempt Dice Control/Influence fail and have rolls no better than random. Perhaps 1 in 1000 might have some promising skill, and 1 in 10,000 might actually be good enough to gain an advantage. Furthermore, even Frank S and many other dice experts agree that table conditions and the environment, as well as one own physical and mental health need to be ideal for any Dice Influence to take hold.

The Critics are stating that the Dice Schools and Gurus don't mention the above,and simply imply that by paying them for a seminar that they will have the advantage at any table, at any time and place. The omission of the above is enough to cast a suspicion of a scam being run on wishful gamblers and craps enthusiast who are interested in the game.

 

Mark V -

YOU are THE 1ST to respond in an understandable and articulate manner to the " premise of dice control " -

" I " do NOT dispute ONE remark in your succinct response -

All I can say after reading your post is - " It IS what it IS " ! -

AND - " One gets out of anything what puts into it " -

In essence - " Nothing Ventured - Nothing Gained " !

Discussion closed !

$...eE..$