Craps TABLE GAME MYTHS: People who practice rhythm rolling can beat the game of Craps.

I know one thing if my living was being made off of managing a craps table, from reading some of these books and a lot of these trip reports, I would be making my table conditions, dealing conditions and environment undesirable for these controllers taking millions off the tables.
It is funny how so many of these trip reports are a cry for attention like, "look what I did aren't you proud of me".
I recently was at the tables in Tunica with a table of 6 trained DI's, most had been to multiple schools, one even help train others. The results were no better then when I am on a table with a bunch of so called chicken feeders. This was multiple sessions for 4 days. Of course a few days after this, there was trip reports of the great rolls of 20 something to 30 something, even back to back. I see the same type results on tables with chicken feeders though, "they are just lucky".
I witnessed twice the dice being switched out in middle of a roll by the pit boss, one hand put the new 5 on the table while the other hand removed the old, all in one motion while payouts are being made for what just rolled, very slick and hard to notice and the boss picked the 2 for the shooter. Why would a casino do this unless they have read all these trip reports and are scared of these huge wins that people claim on the boards?

 

You were at the table with a bunch of people who said they were dice controllers and one was a teacher and they all stunk. Then when they reported their results they all lied and said they did quite well. Casinos are changing dice because books and articles discuss dice control.

Okay, can you name these people (or if you want to keep their real names a secret, tell us at least their handles) so we know who they are?

 

Didn't say they lied, they just report the good rolls not the bad rolls, and most sessions we made a profit, trip we made a profit. I will be glad to tell you in private, but I am not giving out specifics in forums, that was mainly my whole point keep things to yourself, most of these trip reports have nothing for anyone to gain and more to lose. I have no problem with you Frank or your books, as far dice control the cat is out of the bag. I don't agree with some things you write. In fact I received your new one from Amazon Thursday.

 

Yesterday I ran into a DI that has been written up in a few trip reports that I've haven't seen in a while. I've been reading about how much money he and others have been taking off the tables.These trip reports are all coming from a DI that also teaches becoming a so-called DI, in his on going trip report about being here in Vegas and teaching, that are being sent to me, that are posted on a board that I can not get on!

When I asked this DI how he has been doing on the tables, I got a totally different story about his play, he told me that once again he was thinking about moving from Vegas because he was losing money.

Now I know that he doesn't even have a computer so he is never on the craps boards and wouldn't know that someone else is using his name to promote becoming a so-called DI.

Isn't it funny that the trip reports and this DI's story about how he has been doing didn't match up. I get to see this kind of thing happening way to often. You would have thought that I was going to get a fantastic report about his play, but as it turned out I got the truth, that he wasn't making any money and how bad some other so-called DI's play was. What he told me was that these others had a good day at the casino then immediately went back to the same tables the next day only to get hassled about their shooting.

With over 300 tables to play on you would think that those so-called DI's would move their play around, but no they find a table that they won on and the keep going back day after day. Then they wonder why they are now getting hassled by the crew on the tables they are playing on. Some of these shooter stick out like a sore thumb. The casinos believe all the fiction that is written, so when one of them just gets lucky, they will do anything to put a stop to the perceived threat.

Some of us here in Vegas, get a totally different perspective of what really happened when we talk to other so-called DI's and get the real story. Just like the one where this DI is being written up as a big winner and he is telling me that he is losing on the tables and is thinking about moving out of here.

 

Come on, Superrick, what you just wrote is fiction.

 

Just having a little fun with you.

 

Frank I wish it was fiction, had one more talk with the guy that they are using his name to embellish the trip reports with just to make sure that I didn't misunderstand what he said yesterday. His story never changed, because he doesn't have a computer, today I told him what was going on and who was using his name.


If you have to use your friends name to sell something it pretty damn sad!

 

Pot, Kettle, Black.

So Rick: Who and Where(blog)?

 

Pot, kettle, kidding.

 

I have no experience of playing craps or shooting dice but I feel that it could be much like archery or bowling in the game of cricket. A skilled player could be much different from other unskilled ones. I even feel that a few could be skilled enough to turn the house edge upside down and can yield money.
Dice influencing has not been scientifically accepted unlike other skills that give us "advantage" but we can not rule this out that it may be possible to roll dice in a manner to get desired output with slight accuracy what is impossible randomly.

 

The SRR and SmartCraps tests are accurate.

 

My, My, My,... $nakeEye$,.... Did I offend you and the on axis DI schools when I posted over 180 slow-motion videos showing that the dice do not stay on axis? How many of those shooters did you know, is that why your so upset?

It's very simple the videos speak for themselves, all anybody has to do is open there eyes to the truth. They all show the same thing and that is the dice bouncing all over the place when they hit the tables. The dice don't even have to hit the back wall to be totally random.

Do you or anybody else think that I'm going to give you a Alternate Solution when there is none, all I can tell you is to wake up and smell the roses. If you don't like the truth, you can retreat to fantasyland and have your wife read you those bed time fairytales, that the likes of the Madprofessor writes with his trip reports and his 27 page reports that most posters would have written in one page!

I really got a kick out of you saying that “Whereas - YOU - hide behind the curtain”, funny that in the last two weeks I had out-of-town players in that I spent time with not only on the tables but showing the other side of Vegas that most out-of-town players will never see because they spend all of their time in the casinos losing back any money that may have gotten lucky and won on the first part of their trip.

Now lets get this straight, there were no “After Glow Fees” come to think of it there were no fees at all.

I do have a school, nor do I charge to help anybody out.

I don't hide behind anything and go out of my way to help the guys that post on the board that I help run. I've even played on the tables with totally random shooters that wanted to meet me, that I like what they were posting about playing craps.

“Why do you just NOT cease and desist with your incessant useless ranting”

Come on $nakeEye$, why are you even wasting everybody's time saying that on axis shooting works, just because you get lucky every once in a while, when you are shooting, how about all of the times that your not lucky?

I don't throw anybody under the bus, I don't think it's funny that you made public someones name that they do not use anyplace that is a professional craps player, that has no other source of income then what he takes off the tables.

I gave you a free pass, on that one, but it may come to the point that it may be revoked. I don't have the time to play your game, that is trying to hurt others instead of helping them. Somewhere I think that there was a apology do, not only to the person you named but to the whole gambling world that post on these board, I know of one that you made in person so far, but that was not public. You may very well be the one that brought down the gambling boards forums, no gambler wants to see his or her real name posted on a gambling board! I just wonder if that apology is coming or you think that you got that free pass to use as you saw fit!

 

THAT IS BIGGEST JOKE YOU EVER TOLD! If it was true there would be no game of craps! Even the best so-called DI there is can't do what you call dice control 50% of the time there are way to many other factors involved. Your the biggest example there is. If what you write about worked, you wouldn't wast your time writing, you would be hitting every casino you could, the same goes for the rest of the guys that teach on axis craps shooting.

Heavy even admitted that his school is his little hobby, where he makes his buy-ins teaching on axis craps shooting and has a full time job, driving around the country selling Jeeps, or parts to them!

While were at it let's not forget the great fiction writer,..the Madprofessor, that no one has ever saw in a real casino!

 

Look, Superrick, these tests are accurate. By analogy, card counting is far easier than dice control and the tests for card counting are easy to pass. So why aren't the casinos devastated by card counters? Because the overwhelming majority of blackjack players have no interest in doing it.

Now with dice control, the ability is not an easy one to attain; certainly not as easy as card counting. I think the overwhelming majority of craps players have no interest in putting in the time necessary to be any good. They also do not want to bet properly.

To be a good shooter you do not have to keep the dice on-axis. Avoiding the seven is one approach and the SRR tests that; being able to hit certain numbers more than randomly is another and SmartCraps tests that.

As for Heavy, I have no idea if he is any good or how he actually teaches his classes. I do know that his ideas of "trend" betting on random rollers are incorrect in terms of advantage play at craps.

 

That's not a good argument In itself.

 

I accept that there are test that if properly administered and accurately scored would indeed indicate if the shooter has the advantage or not.

Would anyone ever pass?

As to the testing process, ethical honesty and integrity, have to be questioned as well. Shall we hire the like of Michael Shackleford to put forth the standards and administer the test? Again, would anyone ever pass?

I agree with Frank that most players really don't have the inclination to strive for the advantage. Most blackjack players know about card counting, and could perform it ... but don't. It might also just be that counting cards in some situations is a waste of time because of the deep placement of the shuffle card or other means the house uses to counter card counting.

I also agree with Frank that many Craps players are poor players, making 'crazy crapper bets', or just playing a weak game overall. I am not here to correct players playing or tell them how to play. Frank and other craps authors have covered that well enough in the published books.

What I do object to, and quite strongly about, is the partial deception that is implied by the books, the DVD's and the seminars that "Anyone can learn DI and gain the advantage". Sure, anyone can learn the techniques of DI, but to actually gain the advantage very unlikely. Furthermore, not all casino craps tables are conducive to DI for a variety of reasons. I suspect that if a survey of tables where taken, only 10% or less might qualify as DI playable tables.

There is a lot of 'fiction' being created around Dice Control by those who have a vested interest in promoting it to Craps enthusiast, and gamblers in general, that deceives the aspiring Advantage Player in to thinking that they can actually achieve this. What SuperRick and Harley decry is this deception as a 'scam' and rightly so, because it appears to have all the hallmarks of being a scam.

This compares to the modeling schools that claim you can have a fabulous career as a model, and attract thousands of young girls whose parents pay hefty for them to learn the modeling skills. However, what is not said is that perhaps 1 in 50,000 girls actually makes it as a model - mostly for what they are born with, not so much as to what they learn.

Law can have a lot of gray areas where scams can operate just below the threshold of being criminal and adjudicated in a court of law. Typically it is the Consumer Advocates and watchdogs that alert people to the many deceptive schemes out there that 'rip people off'.

I even got ripped off last night by buying some pillows that we where told was made of Bamboo fibers. We got it home, opened up the bag, and found it was made of polyurethane and stank bad. The only Bamboo fibers materials was the outer cover of the pillow. We where scammed and ripped off, but do we have a criminal case? Nope. Do we have a winnable court case? Nope. All we have is a lesson that we should have examined the pillow much closer than we did.

 

Mark V, well written post but somewhat off base a couple of times. The SRR and SmartCraps tests can't be kidded or conned. They are objective. Now if someone is ... oh, I don't know...nuts; he or she might see their failing score and think it is a passing score. Then when they go to the casinos for a year or so and lose they will then think, "I have an edge even though I am getting killed."

I do know that when I was involved with teaching in Golden Touch from 2002-2012, we had a very clear money-back guarantee. No questions asked. We also taught that it would take a minimum of six months of practice to get a feel for the skill. I pushed not going to the casinos in that time and wasting your money and when you finally go to a casino bet really, really low until you see your edge realized. I also let it be known it took me three years (three years!) of play before I got somewhat (somewhat!) competent. I also pushed really hard to explain that if you don't bet correctly then you will lose even with this skill.

For me, the sad thing was this: The overwhelming majority of the students, didn't really want to put in the work and sadly almost all preferred to continue making bad bets and being Crazy Crappers. Even now, there are people on dice-control boards bragging about how they handle the awful Fire Bet (about a 20-25 percent house edge --- worse than the worst slot machines!) as if this bet can be beaten in the long run. That was partly what turned me off to this whole dice control education thing. It was like being on a treadmill; running, running, running and getting nowhere.

Yet, there are individuals who can utilize dice control to beat the casinos. I've played with them; I've played with the best --- and I played with the greatest one I ever saw, the "Arm," a woman who was just amazing.

Okay, as Hamlet said, "Words, words, words," cannot solve this issue between us. You can learn to do it or reject the idea that it can be done but that is about it.

In some ways this controversy is a good thing. For me I have to say that I screwed up too often playing too much in casinos where I was winning a lot and that got me not only booted but banned and often trespassed. I was told why I was banned too at so many, many casinos that there is no doubt these casinos were fully aware of what was going on over time at their tables.

Okay, that's about it from me on this topic.

 

$...eE..$

 

Now, SuperRick -

Would NOT THAT be the " Cat's Meow " ! -

YOU incessantly rant and rave about how Heavy, the Mad Professor, Scoblete and Others -

Are undermining the DI / DC concept -

Perhaps - as YOU - suggest - the demise of ALL DI / DC related forums just might be in YOUR BEST INTEREST !

Just MY Opinion !

Ciao !

$...eE..$

 

I think shooting off your mouth constantly about how good you are is certainly not in anyones best interest except if you are writing fiction about a captain and hosting a seminar.