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Video Poker What are the most costly/common "hold" errors

Discussion in 'Video Poker Forum' started by RarePepes, Jun 8, 2017.

  1. RarePepes

    RarePepes New Member

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    What are the most common errors that players who have a general idea of the correct strategy for a paytable make most often, and of them, which are most costly?
     
  2. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    You ask a very general question, so I'll give a very general two part answer.

    1. For the beginner not using a strategy chart, the most common error is holding too many cards (e.g., kickers, or high cards in a deuces wild game).

    2. For someone using a strategy chart, the most common problem is not truly associating card patterns in a dealt hand with the hand types described in the chart. That's why I developed Optimum Video Poker to actually relate an error to the chart entries. OpVP is the only true strategy chart trainer program, and it's available for both Windows and Macintosh. Go to www.optimumplay.com for more info.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2017
  3. RarePepes

    RarePepes New Member

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    I'm more talking about specific errors, such as holding WW45 suited in Deuces Wild 25/15/9/4/4 when in that case you are only supposed to hold WW, even though when you see WW67 you ARE supposed to hold it...
     
  4. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    That's a good example of holding too many cards. The strategy doesn't say to hold the 45, so why would you hold them? If it's a 5-coin quarter machine with full pay deuces wild, that error costs almost 16 cents.
     
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  5. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    Oops, I just noticed that you indicated a short pay game. It turns out that, with that pay table, it is correct to hold ww45. This highlights another type of player error -- using a strategy that is not generated specifically for the game you're playing.
     
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  6. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

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    The most common mistakes newbs make in DW is holding lone high cards like ace or king.

    They will also hold 2 2 high cards.

    I have seen them hold 22 6 7 off or 22 with dealt str8.

    There is no end to the number of common mistakes made.

    The biggest mistake seasoned players make is not seeing inside straights(on games you should hold them).

    A player can know the strategy down cold in their head, but they may miss many hands during play(they just don't see the bookend pairs)
     
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  7. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    AxelWolf highlights the result of the biggest common error -- not practicing the actual game you will be playing on a trainer program that displays the chart next to the game window and highlights the error in the chart. A player may think he has the strategy down cold, and may even have memorized a strategy chart, but then make playing errors because he hasn't learned to relate card patterns to the hand types in the chart, or they may use the strategy for the wrong game. For example, dealt 5c-Ks-9c-As-6c did you immediately recognize the SF3 di or did you hold the As-Ks? In full pay deuces wild, that's a 10.8 cent error.
     
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  8. RS

    RS Member

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    IIRC, AK suited is not a proper hold in FPDW....unless that's what you meant?


    I'd say for people who have a general idea of strategy, but don't know it perfectly, my guess is playing inside straight draws too frequently. Should never be done in JOB without 3 high cards. Should be done in DDB sometimes. I see people on JOB go for inside straights like 3,4,5,7 instead of throwing it all away or holding the high card. Or in DDB, they go for the inside straight instead of holding the high card (you don't throw away an inside straight vs nothing in DDB).

    For people who know the strategy but make mistakes from time to time, like stuff they just don't see (compared to not knowing) -- is throwing away a pair that's like T,5,3,2,T. Another is inside straights or holding the wrong straight draw (3,4,5,6,8....holding 3-6 outside is superior to 4-8 inside....or 9,T,J,Q,A....holding 9-Q outside is superior to holding T-A inside). Even though the T-A is initially more tempting because it seems like having an extra high card out would be better. SF's probably aren't missed unless you're dealt all black or all red cards, especially if they're in a weird order and in similar rank range (like 3,8,7,5,4 where the 3,7,4 are suited).

    I've also seen a surprising amount of people hold stuff like 5,5,K. I think they think holding that extra high card helps, somehow?
     
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  9. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    At Deuces wild I've seen people hold a royal card with 2-2-2.
     
  10. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    A lot of players may "know" the strategy but not understand it. I've seen players get dealt a hand with two or more potential holds, take out a cue card, study it intently, then make the wrong play! I asked one such player why he held the cards he did, and he replied, "That's what the card said to do."

    That's when I realized that a lot of errors are due to not correctly relating card patterns to the hand type abbreviations in the chart, so I developed the strategy chart training feature in Optimum Video Poker. The chart is displayed next to the game window in the same format as the cue card you would use in the casino. When you make an error, the best play and your play are highlighted in the chart. That way the player learns to correctly relate the chart entries to card patterns.

    Also, if you hold something like 5s-5d-Kh, there is also an error message saying, "You should not hold the Kh." Holding a kicker is an especially expensive error in Deuces Wild. Just remember, each card you hold is one less chance of drawing a deuce.

    I know of only one game where it is sometimes correct to hold a kicker -- Triple Double Bonus Poker.
     
  11. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    Have you ever played "Triple Pay Deuces Wild"? In that game it's even correct to break a dealt wild royal to draw to 2-2-2. It's a 99.9% game, but with extreme variance.
     
  12. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    In this game here it is way way way correct to hold an Ace Kicker with a pair. Of course, this game is so rare you can find it on only two machines these days. In the old days it was found on only a couple dozen machines. It's a two-coin quarter game and the meter starts out with the Natural Aces Full paying 200 for 1
    Jackpot Aces 2.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2017
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  13. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    If that hand (aces full of threes) was dealt in Triple Double Bonus, the correct play would be to hold the three aces and just ONE of the threes as a kicker. I recommend avoiding such weird games.
     
  14. RS

    RS Member

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    Another fun one -- in 9/7 triple double bonus, if you're dealt 3h,4h, 8d,9c,Td, the proper hold? The 3,4 suited! It's about the most messed up game I've ever seen.
     
  15. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

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    I used to play them at Station Casinos all the time with a big advantage. Is it 99.9 with the Reversible Royals? I can't remember now.

    What was the name and year of your first VP program?

    Hell, I still have a copy of VPtutor somewhere, that was the best thing I ever got and it was shareware. All the ones prior were inaccurate.

    I was amazed when Tom Ski told me he had one that would make and print a strategy.


    In the early, 90's It took a few days to run a VP game on my computer(I can't remember how old or what kind the computer was)

    I miss Sigma machines for many reasons.
     
  16. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    I was referring to "Triple Deuces." No reversible royal. Instead of 1000 coins for 4 deuces, it pays 3000 coins. Of course many of the lower payoffs are reduced, and the variance is over 90. There are a few at Sam's Town and at several Stations casinos.

    I started working on my first VP program in 1993, tentatively calling it Precision Video Poker. It took 10 hours to analyze a game running on a Mac PowerBook 150. It ran only on a Mac and was never released for sale. Optimum Video Poker 1.0, released in October, 2004, would do a game analysis in about one second on a Mac G4, but it was too limited in the types of games it could handle. It takes the current version of OpVP about five seconds.

    I used VP Tutor for some early strategy cards, then Tomski's VP Strategy Master. Both were mathematician's programs (no visual user interface).
     
  17. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    Tom Ski's were the first printed strategies I used. I loved the color coding.
     
  18. Dan Paymar

    Dan Paymar Active Member Founding Member

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    The color coding was pretty, but it didn't help me, and I found it hard to read the printout in dim casino light, especially the black print on dark red background. I prefer sharp black on white for best contrast.
     
  19. DDB

    DDB New Member

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    But using VPW next to that line on the strategy it says "not recommended". I always wondered why?
     
  20. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Active Member

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    Yes, that's game I was talking about as well. Years ago, back when they had coin droppers still many of the .25 had the reversible royals. I haven't checked to see if any of them still had the reversible royal's(probably not). At the time there was a situation where one was free rolling the Tiple Deuces, The Royal and the Reversible. One lucky day I hit 3 sets in 4 hours. Throughout the years I have hit a few sets on the dollars with very little investment.
     

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