Craps Where's the proof?

It recently came up on Facebook that someone heard that MythBusters might investigate whether or not DI was possible.

So let me share this fact: it is a fact that I know of zero proofs that DI is possible. And just for convenience, I suggest that a valid proof that it is possible would be recognized by both myself, and let me suggest two others that would be skeptics that would acknowledge a valid proof:

#1: Michael Shackleford (authority on Advantage Casino gambling)
#2: Dan Luben (works for Galaxy Gaming and authority on Table Gaming and related math for table games)

I am seriously interested to see a proof that it is possible under casino conditions.

I will disclose that I have a vested interest in showing that it is not possible because we also are creating a game called "Vegas 2047" that I expect will be the only casino gambling game that enables you to turn hand-to-eye coordination into a legal edge against the casino while playing.

It will be very simple to demonstrate that you can obtain and use an advantage to have lifetime wins in Vegas 2047.

However, it would be very difficult that you can do the same thing in craps.

Given the fact that it will be easy to prove how to advantage play Vegas 2047 while being unable to provide proof to this date for advantage play in craps, I do have a reason why I want it to be known that no such proof exists in craps, and that is because Vegas 2047 is a better game to play than craps if you want to use your skills to pay the bills.

Now I know a lot of people out there who believe that you can turn hand-to-eye coordination into a job in the casino. And I respect a lot of these folks. You can certainly use good luck to make a living in the casino, and craps is the best game to do that, in my view. People do end up with lifetime wins using luck and knowledge for how to reduce the house edge far enough that it can be overcome.

But using physical dexterity to grind out an edge is not something that I have ever seen a proof for exactly how it can be done.

And I know for certain that there are far more people thinking that they can do it than there are folks who are successful at turning a physical skill into an advantaged wager.

I would very much like to blatantly advertise that anyone that thinks they have hand-to-eye coordination should start playing pinball now to get a head-start with Vegas 2047 when it goes out on test.

I would love to see people putting their money where their mouth is when the proof is there that it can be done and the casino will gladly book your action.

 

Well, I am not so sure you can accept the advise of mathematicians when it comes to craps, especially Shackleford who has played less Live Casino craps in his life than you did last year alone -- If I may borrow fellow member Rudy's Albert Einstein quote in his profile:

Ahigh , the Dice Community owes you a huge favor for all the time and monies you have invested in your Craps laboratory .... SuperRick and I both appreciate the efforts you have expended in your dice labs !!

 

I really would like to show a proof that it's possible to AP craps. I'm not hell-bent on saying it can't be done. But I have earnestly for years tried to demonstrate that it's possible and I have been unable to do so, and I have been unable to find anyone else who can show that either. I haven't put much effort into it since beginning work on the pinball game, as I think the pinball game is more important. We also have other games that can be advantage played with hand-to-eye coordination, and the regulatory guys and the casinos are definitely taking notice.

Folks who like to make attempts to use physical skill to earn a living SHOULD BE ecstatic about what we are doing. But most of what I see if holding on to craps and craps methodologies and a general lack of interest in learning how our game is going to work when it arrives.

Harley, I do have a great deal of respect for you, and you are far and above more hard-core about craps than any other people who claim to be full time professional gamblers who play craps.

I do want to work with the community of people who are attempting AP on craps because I need smart people who understand how to turn physical skill into an edge against the money you bet to grok our game concept and get excited about it. IE: Our thing *IS* the real deal to anyone who can develop skill that craps *MIGHT* be to a select few who also have to understand a lot more than just how to be good at playing a game.

 

Another Gambling Expert, Stanford Wong who wrote the book, "Wong on dice" studied this controversial method of tossing the dice and in the beginning thought it did indeed create an advantage for the player and enforced the method.

Then, a few years, Standford Wong recanted his endorsement of Dice Influence and states that there is NO PLAYER ADVANTAGE in tossing the dice in the styles that the various schools and gurus teach.

Bob Dancer Interview with Stanford Wong on his book. In this interview Stanford recants his enforcement of Dice Control/Dice Influence and tells Bob that he was wrong about Dice Control/Dice Influence as an Advantage Play.

 

Well..... I've ALWAYS said that a Good Dice Influencer is only a "Pubic Hair" above Random. That's why it is so hard to Prove or Disprove the Craft. With the Exception of a "Pretty" Looking Toss, Hitting the same spot Repeatedly...... You'd never know that you were witnessing a Skilled shooter in Action. It's THAT close to being Totally Random. The only real difference I can Detect is the Talented Shooter's Propensity to Repeat a Number/s within a given Hand/s. As far as stepping up to the Tables, & Consistently "Lighting up the Board"...... Forget It!!!!! Keep your day Job.

 

Only proven way to influence dice is changing regular dice to loaded ones. Every other theory of dice influencing is a "cock and bull story". One can talk about it but can not prove it. As house edge is carved in stone due to the lesser payout offered than odds, Advantage play can not be described or practically used to the same extent. Good for fiction than real world. Cheating is the only advantage play Players can do.

 

albalaha -

For openers - your moniker - sounds like something that if I saw it on the sidewalk - I would definitely walk around it -

Aside from that -

Can you supply a viable explanation for when I or others whom I am associated with -

Pre-set the dice to certain combinations - these ' pre-set combinations ' are MORE likely to occur during the course of the hand -

As opposed to ' random results ' for the same occurrences -

Regards the ' House Edge / House Advantage ' - THAT is a given - it IS what it IS - Like IT - OR - Leave IT ! -

To insuate that CHEATING is the ONLY recourse that Advantage Craps Players have in their bag -

Just shows to go you what shallow intelligence you possess when it comes to AP Craps -

Obviously - YOU - are unsuccessful at this particular art -

Understandable - as MANY desire to profess the prowess of the likes of Tiger Woods and/or Michael Jordan et al -

BUT - definitely LACK the intestinal fortitude to achieve any where near the results THEY accomplished -

ONE gets OUT of their achievements - NO LESS - than what they PUT IN ! -

Perhaps YOUR true calling is to play " Bingo with the grey haired old ladies " -

Do NOT forget to bring your little bell and ring it when the caller proclaims " Under O - 69 " !

Good Luck -

And - NO - I will NOT visit your " blog " !

$...eE..$

 

Let me start off with this! Then if there is no questions we will move on to my next post on this subject

So you want to be a DI and you wonder what a DI shot should look like, I will save you the trouble of doing a search for any slow motion videos. Now some of these are just down right laughable and others were only produced to sell their schools. You should have no problem picking out the commercially done ones!


On the commercially done ones, you will notice that you really can't see what is happening with the dice. It's their way of showing their future customers really nothing at all.

Is there anybody you know in these videos?

















https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXc2PXS114&index=12&list=TLPhC1SU9dvTE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k467uPlLn3A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzXc2PXS114&index=12&list=TLPhC1SU9dvTE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkU458iCDiY&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hheh7c6J77Y&index=34&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOOULZHKNo0&feature=youtu.be


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6NaIs8y_hE&index=37&list=UUZ0GZph2K4ebWI6FVaoaJdQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiZf3jbjie0&list=UUfDRf2L1rCEgYtGFlS_z9ag


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GS-R8XYUjhs&list=PL29EB7437F6533C12


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68pu1F0D_9g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_wQN7MELc


This guy found 172 videos on throwing the dice or dice control and put them all in one spot for your viewing pleasure and he surely saved me a lot of work!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MrqyVrQWck&list=PL57YTXgE9UrKJJZsOGpdaFhWAEETRt-rU


Lets not forget the one guy that had the best set-up for dice control, Aaron Hightower who went the extra mile to try to prove that dice control either work or it didn't. I have to give him a high-five for all of the work he put into it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2QS26ppbc8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBJwLtAORa0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSfu5QDDVA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM3qDV9Lz3Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdTzwChYv0U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni-uMB17x4I

 

@$nakeEye$,

Dice control or dice influence is a controversial theory and has never been proved as Advantage Play. I can carve this statement on a big rock and put before everybody to disprove me. Usually casinos require a roll to come bouncing from the rubber pyramids. That is what randomises the result irrespective of how it was rolled or how its starting position was kept. If a casino allows craps rolls to go without even touching those pyramids, outcomes can be controlled a bit to exploit casinos. On the same principals, roulette wheels are being rotated clockwise and anticlockwise alternately and deflectors are set on the wheel to randomize the final outcome.

You better do and learn some hard to digest facts. Even if you do not, I do not mind, I have 235k visits already there that shows that good info is indeed appreciated. You keep mongering fallacies, I will keep trying to awaken people.

 

The real problem with Dice Influencing is the Belief that Dice Tossed as a "Mirror" Image of each other keeps them "On Axis", (And it does UNTIL they hit the Table) Therefore Giving the Tosser an Advantage. This is the Premise that Dice Influencing is Built On!!! Unfortunately, It's NOT True. As soon as your "Perfect" looking Mid-air Toss hits the Table, the Chaos Begins. Don't believe it? Just check out the Slo-Mo Videos. The evidence is Quite compelling. If "Mirror" Image tossing Guaranteed an advantage, there'd be some REAL threats to the Casinos. There are Quite a Few DI's that have their Toss down to a Science..... In terms of exhibiting that Ooh, Ah, Mid-air , Mirror Image Toss. If you've ever witnessed Jerry Stickman's toss.... It's a thing of Sheer Beauty!!! (Maybe Frank can chime in on this, as Jerry is purportedly a Good friend of his). However, as Beautiful of a Toss that Jerry possesses, It COULD very well be a Stone-Cold Loser. Why? Because we don't know what happens when that "Beauty" comes to a Final rest. As Superrick always says:" The ABSOLUTE best Looking toss I ever Exhibited turned out to be a Stone-Cold Seven-out!!!!" Now, this statement comes from one of the Very Best DI's in the Country!!!

 

From the very first time I picked up the dice I was setting them. Back then I just thought that there had to be a better way of throwing the dice then just slinging them down the tables. It wasn't to years later that someone told me that there were players that they were calling DI's and that I must be one of them.


When they told me that there was this thing called on-axis dice shooting I told the person that was explaining that to me that they were nuts. There was no way to keep your dice on axis like they were saying.


Now come the funny part, these DI schools that were popping up coined the words random rollers. That really got to me, all of a sudden you had a new classification of who was shooting the dice.

Before these schools we were all just shooters and we made money on the lucky shooters that got on a roll, just like we do now days.


Nothing has changed, but you do have these DI schools believing in fairytales. If you take a bunch of shooters at one table someone is bound to have a decent roll. There are always times when it will be one of those random rollers. That one of their posters will make a quick mention of the roll, but will not say anything more about it. They only focus on any of their buddies that might have had a roll.


I've seen way to many times when the so-called random rollers were out shooting every so-called DI on the table and nothing was said about those random rollers.


These on-axis DI schools have never produced one video that everybody can look at and see what really happens is slow-motion when their dice hits the tables, they use fiction to sell what they are doing, and will ban anybody that questions what they are telling all of their followers!


For them their DI on axis school is a hobby to sell others on becoming a so-called DI and to give them their buy-ins to play craps. They admit that they are not professional gamblers, in their own words they are recreational craps players. Damn I wouldn't want a recreational craps player teaching me anything about the game, if I had to pay them to do it!


For there followers, they are given a induction into the good old boy society, where they can pay those “After Glow Fees” to go to the tables with their heroes, in the hopes of catching a good roll.


They keep paying to take refresher courses just so they can be in the good old boy society and those hook-up fees that are now called the “After Glow Fee” ! I would love to see MythBusters do a show on dice control, just to bust the myth that it could be done, when it can't. It would save a lot of players money.

 

For doubters about dice control, why not do a craps version of Pascal's Wager? If dice control is true and you learn how to do it, you will make money in the casinos (you'd have to bet properly, of course); and if dice control is false, you would lose the same amount as you would have lost anyway --- no economic harm done. It's a proposition that's intriguing.

Betting properly (which many on this thread might not do) would also help to keep your losses lower. Bet really, really low on random rollers (those other shooters) after using the 5-Count and you'd really, really save money.

So give Pascal's "Craps" Wager a try.

 

Frank - you know that GTC company that you coincidentally and conveniently left shortly after all the slow motion Dice videos became readily available - well that same GTC business offered video analysis of anyone's toss.

Frank, do you mind or dare make available to us any of your tosses in Slow motion to prove that dice control is possible??!?!

 

Frank,

I know quite a few Pro gamblers, some who play only craps too. Of the Craps Pros, none of them use any "Tossing methods" as a means to gain the house advantage. I won't go in to details on how they play and win, though I will make a few statements that I hear from them:

- Nothing is truly random, everything will have a bias. It could come from the wear and tear of the casino devices, from human factors, and from manufacturing and construction methods of the gaming materials.

- Finding the bias, and the degree of bias, is where the pro gambler can gain the advantage on the casino. This is not easy and takes a lot of time.

- If no advantage is to be found, the pro will not bet much, if at all. Most likely the pro will just go hunting for a situation where the bias is most clearly obvious and well with in their favor.

A losing bet is always a losing bet! No amount of monkeying with the dice will change that fact!

I do think that the shooter can introduce a bias to the dice as to how they set and toss them. However, this is very conditional if they will succeed!
First, the dice have to be fair dice. Dice that are unbalanced or shoddily made will not stay on-axis while in flight and will not bounce true. Many shooters use use an on-axis toss with bias dice are perplexed when their hands are very short, or when using an inside dice set they get outside numbers and vice verse for an outside dice set. This had nothing to do with dirty hands, untrimmed fingernails or finger spacing as some dice gurus claim as why this phenomena happens.

Second, the bounciness of table top is a huge factor. The more bouncy the table the less likely the dice will stay even remotely on-axis.

Third, the backwall diamonds is death to any on-axis toss. A bouncy backwall, where it is super-ball like rubber and the 5-diamond backwall will totally destroy any DI dreams at that table.

My own scouting in Las Vegas just last week showed me that the vast majority of the casinos up and down the strip and in Downtown have bouncy tables and a very bouncy backwall. Some casinos I visited use what I call "Indian Dice" that are so unballanced that the dice fly apart in the air tumbling to the left and right because of how off-ballance they are typically with the center of gravity in the 4,5,6 corner of the die. Tossing such dice, you can see the dice fly apart and rotate away. There is no possibility of any on-axis toss with such dice. Many casinos I visited has such dice in play, and there is no set, grip or toss that can correct this issue.

HEAT, HEAT, HEAT

Thanks for the all the heat, Frank. When was the last time you where actually in Las Vegas?

So, all of these books written about "how to beat the stuffing out of the casino" has created a lot of sleepless nights for the casino executives. And, you know how the good ol' boys think, "why take the chance?" they say, so they just goosed the table surfaces, the backwall and the dice to ensure nobody with any 'Magical Toss' can come in and "beat the stuffing out of them". Sure, some of them know that DI is fiction, but then again, if the changes at the table increase the house edge, well you know they will say it is a good thing.

So, perhaps you will come visit and see the unintentional results from your books . When you get sick of hearing "Dice off the table", or the dice hitting the backwall and with super-energy powers come plowing right back to the stickman! Or perhaps you will see some of the most curious Casino Craps dice that defy any attempt to Influence them. Make sure your hands are clean and finger nails trimmed, you would not want someone to point out that being a slob is why the dice don't shoot right!

NOT BETTING RIGHT

I will give you that one Frank, that many Craps players are poor/weak betters. Most put way to much money on the table for the buy-in, most think they will press their bets "to the moon", to many get hooked on the high house edge bets or play with high volatility (5x odds, 10x odds or higher).

What book would you think would sell better? A book on good betting strategies or a book on magical shooting methods to make the Casino your personal ATM machine. What one?

 

Mark V, I don't recognize your Handle, but WELCOME ABOARD!!!!! What you speak is the Gospel Truth. I guess You've "Been There", "Done That" playing the Game of Craps. You are 100% "Spot On" concerning the Dice in the Indian Casinos. There will ALWAYS be a VERY Noticeable wobble with the Dice in MOST Indian casinos. That is correct...... They separate in Mid-air BEFORE they even hit the Table. The Imbalance is JUST THAT BAD!! Looking forward to your Future Insightful Posts. Continued Success at the Tables.

 

Tabletop...

The point many of the members here are trying to say is this:

"Thinking you will take an on-axis dice toss to any craps table anywhere and have the Players Advantage is pure fantasy"

This is why the dice schools are called "Snake oil" because they don't tell you that their methods only work in certain circumstances that are rare to find, if non-existent these days.

I see guys selling Blackjack card courting seminars all the time. People come there thinking they will go back to the casino and make it their ATM machine. But what they are not told is that the deep cut card in the shoe kills any chance they have to score on a hot shoe, and that 0.8 blackjack will eventually grind them down. They are also not told that to find 0.28 blackjack, single deck, you have to be playing at over $200 a hand! (and a casino eye in the sky is counting cards too and if they see you vary your bet with the count, you are kicked out).

There is a lot of hustle in the casinos from players on other players. I don't see so much of it in the Indian Casinos, but it is there never the less and I can go in to details on the scams and hustles that I have run across. Perhaps I will write a book:

"I am a casino hustler" and detail all the crap I have seen

 

The DVD Beat Craps by Controlling the Dice (available on Amazon) shows dozens of my rolls in slow motion. If you read my book Cutting Edge Craps: Advanced Strategies for Serious Players I do explain what super-slow motion rolls really look like as opposed to our generalizations when we discuss dice control. The dice move much more than what has been dubbed a "dead cat bounce." I think readers would find this interesting.

Of course, in my classes the instructors showed their throws --- numerous times --- so it was not a case of do this and take it on faith that we can do what we claim we can do.

As far as leaving Golden Touch, the "videos" on the Internet had nothing to do with it since those videos, used without permission I might add, are taken from the DVD. I did explain on the Wizard's board exactly what those videos showed --- a controlled throw. My new book I Am a Dice Controller: Inside the World of Advantage-Play Craps will explain exactly, and in detail, why I retired.

I do know that the sarcasm used to approach this conversation (and me) appeals to those who already disagree with me about this or that gambling concept.

During the interview on "Tipping the Odds Vegas" I did say I went to Vegas far more than I did Atlantic City although Atlantic City is in my backyard (well, three hours away from me). During most of my blackjack card counting career and dice control career I spent about 130 days in the casinos, overwhelmingly in Vegas but also in AC and Tunica. After over 25 years, I am ready to do other things; write other types of books and articles and spend more time with my family (especially my beautiful grandkids).

I am using my time differently now. My casino play has been toned down to only a handful of short trips a year (short is a week, not a couple of days). My wife the Beautiful AP and I are traveling the United States and the World. Since I retired from GTC at the end of 2012 I have visited Hawaii, Alaska, New Hampshire, Vermont, Vancouver, Japan, England, Ireland, Scotland, France and I am doing a tour with Jerry "Stickman" of baseball stadiums in America (17 cities visited so far). When we go to the cities we not only see the games but stay a few days to tour.

About "goosing the table surfaces," this has little or nothing to do with dice control. The new fabrics last far longer than the old felt and come in great colors that casino planners (decorators) enjoy using. The bounciness of the tables is an unfortunate side effect but not the intent.

I do think many posters on many sites create in their minds a fabric of false rationales that they then expound upon, attacking or supporting these fabrications as if they are fact as opposed to fancy, displaying to those in the know no real knowledge of about which they speak.

Someone in a previous post mentioned that in card counting you have to bet big in order to make decent money. That is totally true, if by decent money we are talking five hundred to a thousand or more a day. You can use a simple rule of thumb to decide what you will earn. Blackjack counters use a spread of bets (as was stated). Just figure out what your average bet is and that is probably what you will earn an hour. So if your spread shows that in an hour your average bet will be $500, then you can guesstimate that is what you will earn over time. Of course, the ups and downs are amazing - for good and ill. I once lost over $10,000 in one hour at Treasure Island in Vegas. So you have to be prepared for that.

Okay, I have to run (actually I have to get busy on my new book) so I hope those reading this found it interesting.

 

@Frank Scoblete ,
Can you prove the effect of you dice influence in controlled conditions (not in your own setup or videos)? How much is the advantage that you expect in say 100 roles by your dice influence?

 

albalaha, this was done in the video and in the Cutting Edge Craps book.

 

Frank - just FYI, unless you are already aware, your videos are available on PirateBay as well as some other sites https://thepiratebay.se/search/Golden Touch Craps/0/99/0

You should be flattered that your works have been violated much in the same way as Harrison Ford's ...



... the key is are you Han Solo or the Doctor???