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Casino Gambling Addiction Denial

Discussion in 'Casino Forum' started by Junket King, Oct 12, 2021.

  1. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I agree, but only if one likes to gamble. Why we like things is complicated... There is quite a bit of research looking into dopamine pathways and how some people are more or less sensitive to negative and positive reinforcement. Let's try a thought experiment:

    You are going to have several people play 1,000 hands of a casino game. You do not allow them to keep records.

    Some of those people, "HATE LOSING". Every-time they place a wager and it does not succeed they feel as though they have been stabbed with a knife. Obviously, then may win occasionally, but when they do it only feels to them as though they are getting back a tiny fraction of what they have lost. It is not a victory.

    Some of these people, "LOVE WINNING". Every-time they place a wager and it succeeds they feel a sense of accomplishment and vindication. When they lose it's all just part of the process required to get real wins. Weak minded people that are afraid to risk, that are afraid to lose, they will never understand what's required to be a winner.

    After the 1,000 hands of play the folks that love winning are probably going to want to play again. The individuals that are more sensitive to losing will probably go on to do something more productive with their lives than betting on games of chance, whether the odds are in, or not in their favor.
    ------------------

    How your brain processes and remembers negative and positive results--and which it favors, is the primary factor in gambling addiction.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  2. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I would add one more thing. Perhaps, because my first five years "gambling" was spent as a salaried employee that made nothing extra and nothing less depending on results, I have more insight into this issue than what would be considered normal. Gambling for $85 an hour, win, lose, or draw--16 hours a day, for a year straight with no days off, makes you think about stuff. (and things)
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  3. gizmotron

    gizmotron Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    This is why you would make a perfect psychologist. You have no clue.
     
  4. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I sorta love this comment. You are more right than you know. It took me three and half years of research (during which I never walked into a casino) to try to figure out why anyone gambled. Having gotten either an hourly wage or HIGH salary for the first five years of my introduction to casinos and gambling, I couldn't understand why anyone would do it unless they were guaranteed to make money.
     
  5. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I think I understand what you are saying and I don't completely disagree. I have always been slightly too challenging with my concepts and my writing. My second engagement to be married ended with an argument that I think sums up pretty well what I think you are saying. I will try to recount it here verbatim:

    My fiancee (Her) said unambiguously, "I can never win an argument with you."

    Me: Of course you can, you would simply need to be right.

    Her: But that's the problem, you are always right. I know you are right and I know I am wrong. I just never realized how wrong I was about so many things until you showed up in my life. You make me feel bad. You make me feel stupid.

    Me: I am very sorry, that was not my intent. I was only trying to help you, not hurt you.

    Her: Yes I know that. That's what makes it worse. I can't even be mad at you for destroying my life, because everything you've said is true and you were only trying to help me.

    Me: What can I do?

    Her: You can leave. I need to not have someone in my life that sees all my flaws.

    ----------------
    P.S. To moderators...yes please let this and the previous post stand. Good criticism is the only way by which we improve.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021 at 6:03 PM
  6. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I do disagree on one thing you said. I'm not hanging around for "attention" I am actively doing research and trying to hone my skills and your negative feedback is almost a perfect example of why I need more experience and research.

    Most people that go into psychology and counseling have some experience with the thing they are counseling people on. Despite having 30+ years as a "pro-gambler" I have no experience with gambling. I have played many casino games. I have never gambled and I never will.

    If you have more specific insight into exactly what it is you think I'm doing incorrectly, and why it's not resonating I would be all ears.

    Hell, I might owe you one.
     
  7. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    You actually have good insight into some of the issues facing the counseling field. In fact I might upgrade "good" to "great". 12 step programs were dubious as far back as the late 90's and "the disease model" was under extreme scrutiny. The issue for the field is that once a treatment paradigm enters use, it becomes unethical to use anything other than that one approved treatment modality.

    One cannot test anything that might be better if something else that's "proven" is already in use.

    This makes scientific testing for all intents and purposes totally impossible.

    Complicating the issue to the point of absurdity is the rule that treatment paradigms can't be used unless they are scientifically proven.

    Let's sum this up: I can't try this unless it's proven and I can't prove it unless it's tried... Catch Square Root of 484.

    The Disease Model (AKA: 12 Step) modality is utter BS. The psychological community knows this. Their hands are tied behind their backs and they are ball-gagged not to talk about bad it really is.

    -----------------------

    References: Best Possible Odds by Dr. William G. McCown & Dr. Linda Chamberlain
     

  8. Junket King

    Junket King Well-Known Member

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    There was some physiological findings published many years ago that stated, hardened gamblers get a endorphin rush prior to the actual outcome, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, you're becoming addicted to the serotonin hits.

    A office party visiting a casino for a night out, a winner may return thinking of easy money, a loser may return to get their money back. Those living enriched fulfilled lives, in loving relationships, demanding or high pressure jobs, may never return. Then you have say a novice, or those individuals with a habitual problems with them even realising it, somebody trying to escape outside pressure (relationship, job), who just plays casually for only a week. They are treated like kings, free drinks, lights flashing, sounds, money on the felt, it very easy to get hooked and become a pawn of any casino for LIFE.
     

  9. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    These forum discussions are almost driven by disagreement and divergent opinions.

    I can find no fault in anything you just said. I might have a ton of confirmatory evidence.

    ------

    Let's take a Selah and let me tell you about how odd I am. Giz would say "clueless".

    I'm at the Aladdin Casino playing 678 JKR Poker with a 1% cash card and a cocktail waitress, "Carmen Mary Catuska" delivers me my tea (TWO-bags-only-steeped for 30-sec) with cream and honey, I begin talking with her. Here's a pic.

    ab9afee7fcc140801c284920eb505d6a.jpg

    Anyway, while we were talking, with my attention split, I hit a Royal Flush and she suddenly got a weird look on her face. I had not seen the RF as I never paid attention to anything other than my holds. I did not look at the cards that "came in". She said, "you just got a Royal Flush!!!". I said, "yes it would seem I have, it is one of the many hands one can get playing this game". I could honestly have not cared less.

    I then tried to continue the conversation I had been having with her, but it became obvious that I needed to be more "excited" about having just hit a Royal Flush--An event I considered boring and common place and not worth mentioning. She clearly thought it was odd that I had not noticed and that I did not care. (To me, making a fuss about hitting a Royal would have been like bragging about having driven to work)

    I feigned excitement, to not to seem out of place, drank my tea, and wondered why anyone cares about events involving random elements that happen to land in their favor.

    The following day Bradley Davis dropped by the bank, he noticed me due to my absurd hand speed, and after an impromptu dinner I comped, I gave him a tour of the city.

    The addendum to this story is that Mary Carmen did not go out with me because she thought I had a gambling problem. She even looked up and called my Mother to "try to help me"...

    (If any of this story seemed odd try to understand that I made exactly the same money, whether I hit a RF or not. I was salary)
     
  10. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    It's been a long time. I may have gotten the name wrong. It could have been, "Mary Carmen Katuska"... She was also the first RIO Rita. I am not sure on the spelling, I only remember how it sounded.
     
  11. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Tried to call Mary after my post. Seems like she passed away 2 years ago. If anyone knows different let me know.
     
  12. gizmotron

    gizmotron Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    And the rest of this individual post too. I could not be more surprised. I agree with you almost completely. Psychologists are reduced to finding a treatment plan that is in accordance with and fits a category that insurance will accept. So they work as functionaries of well groomed insurance actuaries and process paperwork so that the actual work is handed down to licensed and less expensive and more profitable therapist to administrate. It's a business model that works. So all gamblers with gambling problems are addicted. It's a disease and they are victims.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021 at 11:05 PM
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  13. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I am truly saddened and also gladdened by the mere acknowledgement of the mountains we must scale. Your comments and your concerns are currently tears in the rain, as are mine, but perhaps if enough of us cry and we collect those tears, we can generate a flood and the dam may break.

    No one ever changed the world that wasn't at least trying...though the graveyards are filled with those that tired and failed. I will keep trying and F*&^ my epitaph. Perhaps this is my version of gambling.

    ~FK

    P.S. BTW: it's far worse than you stated so far as insurance goes. One could have ONE-HUNDRED-MILLION-DOLLARS and f-ed-off all of it but 10-gees and not qualify for assistance due to not being (completely) broke. (Still have money??? Oh I'm so sorry, come back when you don't.)
     
  14. Junket King

    Junket King Well-Known Member

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    What is it with Amercian culture and the tendency of laying on high calories on literally everything, bagels, waffles, maple syrup!!
    I eat organic honey sparingly on low cholesterol spread, and what's wrong with skinny milk and sugar (I haven't used sugar in decades).

    Amercian's do tend to be on the large side, not only in build and height, also around their middles, which has been a real negative when it comes to Covid.

    I understand (I think), it didn't matter either way, you were still paid, sounds like you found gambling boring, yeah I tend to agree. I don't confess to like gambling, sure it's great when you winning, leave a winner, on cloud nine, buzzing, but the stress of potentially losing, the stress of playing, negates a lot of the fun aspect of it. I gamble not for the thrill of it, rather the lure of making easy tax-free money. It's good to step into a busy casino and float around un-noticed as you can do in Oz, not so much in the UK.

    I would never ever consider it entertaining, the risk of losing money could never be considered as having fun or enoyable, going to a casino to hang out, catch up, have a beer and observe, that's ok. But once you buyin, then it's "switch on" time, seriousness and pressure, manage the game, yourself and environment, saving the self congratulations or commiserations once I'm out the door.
     
  15. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Yeah I probably eat better than most of the yanks. No sugar or soft-drinks, ever. I cook most of my own meals and I use a lot of home grown herbs.

    You reminded me of another factor. While I was paid hourly and or salary, I did of course get to keep the COMPS. Having grown up in Europe on a Movie Producer's Budget I was used to very high-end gourmet food. Being able to go out and have $500 meals was a true treat for me. It was my favorite part of the job!:)

    Here's the kicker: If I went to work and hit the BIG-PROGRESSIVE we were playing for too quickly, it wouldn't be enough play to qualify for a GOOD-COMP. Therefore, extreme "luck" robed me of the one thing I enjoyed the most about PRO-GAMBLING, the food.

    I very specifically remember hitting a $11,000 RF at the RIO on my first hand and all I could think was, well no-nice food tonight. I may be mistaken, but I think I actually shouted, "crap" when I hit it. I remember someone asking me why I was upset and I simply told them I was hoping to play enough to get a comp, now I had to leave. Why they then asked me why I couldn't just keep playing I realized I was talking to a citizen and should probably clam up.

    Here perhaps is the truly funny takeaway: I remember almost none of my BIG JP's, there were just too many to count. I remember that one at the RIO I got on my first hand, only because it really annoyed me. I know I hit some other progressives almost instantaneously after sitting down but those aren't memorable because they weren't in a casino where I liked the food.

    I am Frank Kneeland and I Approve of this message...:)
     

  16. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    Hay GIZ: I talked about this post and our discussion with two of my psychology friends. I wanted you to know there was general consensus on your basic premise that clinical psychology might not be a good fit for me, as I would become disillusioned by the profit driven risk adverse nature of the industry. One of my friends made the comment, "It's not really about helping anyone anymore."

    Doesn't that just take the wind out of your sails. Mine anyway.

    I am still processing this, but I'm seriously considering a slightly different path. Perhaps, research psychology, or neuroscience...of course the prerequisites for that field are MUCH MORE money and time.

    I was eight months away from getting my counseling license. I'm years away from those other possible tacks...and I ain't getting any younger.

    What do you think I should do?
    Go for the degree I might never even finish?
    Or take the easy counseling job that might make me miserable?

    You seem to have genuine insight on this matter. I would very much like your opinion.
     
  17. gizmotron

    gizmotron Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    You will hate the world of insurance paperwork processing.

    I had two friends both go to law school directly from the construction industry. Both challenged the state entrance exam for having not completed an undergraduate degree as prerequisite. One had a great private school education through high school and scored the fourth highest in the state. He went on to pass the bar exam on the first try. The other also made it through the state's hurdle and went all the way through law school. He failed the bar exam and never went back for more. The first guy wanted out of construction so bad that it had to happen. The second guy that only tried once was already a millionaire and a small time custom home developer. He wanted to be a lawyer just to do battle with customers and subcontractors. So he never went into the law field. The first guy ended up being an accident tort attorney. The second guy ended up poor and homeless as a failed stock market day trader.

    Doing something or not doing something depends on if you are happy already. My guess is that if you are not happy now you might find it difficult to be happy in acquiring that rainbow over the fence. Most people don't know that they have trapped themselves in the plans that they attempt to accomplish for themselves. Take the "Van Life" people, nomads some call them. Some of them are living in their vehicles because of a bad bit of luck and timing and they found themselves homeless. But many others see it as breaking away from expectations that they have placed on themselves in order to satisfy expectation's of others that they don't even know. They call themselves houseless now. They once told themselves that the mortgage on the house and the new car every five years is success. But it's a trap if you look at it. Those people trapped spend more than half of their after taxes income on that obligation to being tied down to one place. After that they get auto loans and credit card debt. So they go off to work the 40 hours a week as a slave to their financial obligations. At the end they will retire in bodies that are too decrepit to enjoy anything.

    Here is a video that explains it a little better:

     
  18. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    My goodness, this was way more than I expected. I knew you had insight, you have exceeded all my expectations. Your reply didn't grow on a tree, you spent some time on it. I am truly appreciative of both the effort and the content.

    I think we are officially counseling me at this point, and so you should know a bit more of my story. Your guess that I am NOT happy is a really good guess. It's not exactly correct, but there's nothing in anything I have ever said that would have given you the information you would have needed to be closer to the truth. I will attempt to rectify that now.

    Ask anyone that knows me and they'll tell you I'm EXTREMELY happy. I seem to have a very low threshold for happiness and so long as I am figuring out things or learning new skills I don't have a care in the world. I can find happiness in mopping a floor, but only so long as I figure out how to do it faster and better.

    The issue would seem to be that my basic motivations are in-congruent and completely divergent from the rest of society. When I got my first apartment a girlfriend had to tell me it was odd that I didn't have a bed. I said, "it's a waste of money, what's wrong with the floor?" This did not go well. I ended up getting a bed, but only to make her happy. When she wasn't there I slept on the floor. I actually preferred it.

    I have lived an incredibly rich life and almost always been happy, except for when I have lost people close to me. I seem to need almost nothing to be happy, and so I would like to give what time I have left to helping others.

    Additionally, I have suffered from TOO-MANY-CHOICES. When you can do anything and everything, picking one thing to do becomes a lot more complicated.

    If you need a reason to think I'm flawed, know that I have f-ed-off THREE full scholarships and an offer from the Air-Force to become a test-pilot/astronaut + car + house...

    I could never just pick ONE thing, and learning new things was always more interesting and exciting to me than doing them once I had.

    There's a good book entitled, "The Paradox of Choice" that sums up my issues nicely.

    I'm very happy, but that's the issue. I probably shouldn't be.
     
  19. gizmotron

    gizmotron Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Let me break down my life and how I was already a nomad long before I discovered full time RVing. I chased the brass ring and made it. Then my life blew up in my face. I have a somewhat active mind. I'm always thinking about how does this work or how do you do that. So I was an aspiring skier back in the early 70's. That and backpacking and fishing were my sports. Then some guy skied down the face of the Grand Teton all by himself. I had already climbed a mountain and had no clue what I was doing. I even though I might fall into a crevasse that was not even there. But skiing off a mountain that you spend all day climbing looked like an awesome thing to do. So I added rock climbing and mountaineering to my skiing. Those activities made me an outsider, pun not intended. But I learned the art of minimalism. I learned to think for myself. In life I also learned all about living in an RV full time. I decided that I could do anything that I wanted. I ran off to Florida and joined the metaphorical circus. I spent two years interning for a professional music business compony. I got a full dose of the music business. Now there is a life for you if you want to be a starving artist. It was fun and I did get to meet a lot of important people in that industry. But there is no way that it even comes close to doing the men's downhill at the world cup. It can't hold a candle to climbing the great walls of Yosemite.

    I knew that if I wanted to do all these great things in a bucket list that I would have to do all that before my body had grown worthless. That is what the retirement goal was, what I was taught from childhood. You work all your life for a pension and then you go play golf or fish. Well hell with that plan. Let's play golf and fish now. In fact let's launch a band and get them signed to a major label. Let's mix live sound for a major rock concert. Let's design and build a world class recording studio with the largest Trident A Range recording board in the entire world in it. Let's ski off the mountain climbing route on the north face of Mt Shasta where roped climbers ascend. Let's ski off of Tioga Pass into Lee Vining Canyon in a natural half pipe created by an avalanche a few weeks earlier. I can go on and on. There was windsurfing, SCUBA diving, ice climbing, ski mountaineering, computer programming, owning and operating my own business, music business, and last but not least, mastering gambling. I have always been a nomad in search of freedom. I did all that on the income of a carpenter. That was a skill that took me all over the country and was ease ably recognizable as competent and reciprocal. I was often the boss or lead carpenter real fast. I was groomed to be an electrical engineer. I had an already made to order job at IBM. I blew all that up and checked out for freedom. I'm 70 years old and can still remember going off rope on the Cobra in Yosemite. I did a full pitch of sustained 5.8 layback so that the rope could be flipped over the pillar that I led to the classic route that my climbing buddy wanted instead. I remember everything. I can't get memories like that out of my head. I did all the stuff on the bucket list first.
     
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  20. Frank Kneeland

    Frank Kneeland Active Member Lineage to Founders

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    I enjoyed the video. I could picture myself living like that...I need but a tall ship and a star to stear her by. Then it's second star to the right and straight on 'till morning. Be well...
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2021 at 10:07 PM
  21. Nathan Detroit

    Nathan Detroit Well-Known Member Founding Member

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    Like Douglas Edward`s Tv show " This is your life ".
     

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