Las Vegas GF Chat Room

KJ, the "big player" technique in the movie 21 was actually developed by Al Francesco in the early 70's. Ken Uston worked on Francesco's team and exposed the technique in his 1977 book, The Big Player. Francesco's team was barred out of the Nevada casinos because of the book.

 

Thanks mickey. I did know Francesco was the "father" of that team play approach. Might have forgotten it as of course those guys were way before my time.

But in response to Rob's inquiry, this was one of the inaccuracies of the movie. In the movie, they had the MIT player getting caught at the table signaling in the big player, when that is not how the MIT or most other teams around that time did it. The spotters stood behind milling around, backcounting multiple tables, and then would signal the player without ever sitting at the same table. This would give them 4, 5, 6 times the chance of finding a good strong count over playing one single table like in Uston's day. So the way the movie portrayed that actual event is not the way it occurred at that time. They mixed up their "eras". Typical inaccuracies of movies. lol

Now I didn't want to share this yesterday, because Rob gets upset when I share my experiences, but a solo player can do the back counting thing and just sit down at positive count, same as that team approach. That is what pure "wonging in" is. You are going to play less rounds, but every round is at an advantage as opposed to traditional card counting where you play all counts waiting for that really good count.

So when I was starting out back in Atlantic City, I really wanted to do that back count thing and only play good +EV counts. Would have been a faster way to grow BR with less variance. But at that time, AC was just too busy. There weren't empty seats at the lower limit games that I needed to play at that time, and if there was an empty seat and you went to the trouble of backcounting, someone might jump in that seat just before you did. It just wasn't a technique that would work well in crowded situations.

So when I moved to Vegas, I was excited about the less crowded condition, especially during the week. I intended to do a lot of back counting. But I quickly realized the problem with that. When uncrowded, someone standing behind the game, milling around is noticed by players, dealer and pit alike. Everyone sort of becomes uncomfortable with someone milling around and it is very obvious with uncrowded conditions. So I quickly gave up that idea as well. That is when I came up with the compromise of playing and tracking a second table, when condition were right.

I also suspect this is one of the reasons Zenking has had so much trouble in Vegas. He is a proponent of backcounting and only playing positive counts and I don't believe you can do so regularly without drawing attention to yourself. Of course that is only one of his issues. He basically is the poster child of what NOT to do if you want to succeed.

 

Zenk is pulling everybody's legs.

I'm not finding any corroboration online of there being these multiple back counters milling around for the MIT team (which wasn't very large to begin with). What's wrong with the way the movie depicted it?I'm also not sure why a movie on the subject wouldn't explain truthfully how the team got caught--which is a major part of the story. If this is just an "era" belief thing then I'm not buying it.

You also bring up another dagger against your two-table counting. If that were possible as a method of beating the game consistently, THAT would have been both the time (era) and the people to do it. These people obviously had quick math-capable minds who all scored to near perfection on the math portions of the SAT's back then.

If there's a more complete, more accurate review of the truths and falsities of 21 somewhere online then please guide me to it.

 

I believe you have Fransesco first name wrong Mickey, its San not Al.

 

Rob the MIT team was not just that particular group portrayed in the movie. There were MIT teams dating back to the 60's and 70's. Different versions. Different players.

Might even be teams today made up of entirely different newer students. Although, like most card counters, MIT students have also probably moved on to newer opportunities with bigger edges.

The tracking a second table while playing one is a solo player technique, Rob. I have tried to explain that to you, why are you having such a hard time with it.

I don't personally know any MIT team guys so I haven't asked them, but I would bet some tracked a second table when playing solo. It is just a natural progression for experienced players. Or at least it was when there were more pure blackjack games. Less and less opportunities now a days.

 

Rob, there was a lot of discussion about the inaccuracies on different blackjack forums back in 2008 and 2009. Check the archives of some of the forums.

If I am not mistaken and I might be mixing up with The Hangover which also had some inaccuracies, but I seem to remember at one point they mixed up explaining how card counting even works, saying or implying that high cards coming out was good for the player when it is just the opposite, low cards coming out are good, meaning more high cards remaining.

Rob, I really appreciate your honesty yesterday and softer tone today, but you are still trying to find some kind of "gottch ya" moment. Give it up. I am what I have shared, make what I claim and live where I indicated. Your buddy MDawg even proved that and gave the actual address which I hadn't done.

 

That last para. goes both ways kew. Even when arguments persist. And my counting two tables cynicism isn't because YOU specifically claim to do it, and has nothing to do with Alan or his blurry pic. (At least he made an effort). It has to do with ME--the last time I was at Mirage and MB I actually played some BJ for the sole purpose of examining the possibility. I tried different seats, different tables, and tables with varying nos. of players.

Now I'm not a counter but I know how it's done. I also wasn't there to win or lose. I'm also a very sharp person, with numbers and cards running thru my head whenever I'm in a casino. I can honestly say I found no possible way that trying to keep an attentive eye on an adjacent table would have been valuable enuf to ever want to get up and switch (because of the huge numbers of viewable cards that escaped my constantly turning eyes and head, and the inability to see some cards because of hand positions or just bodies/body parts blocking the view.) Also, it was a big distraction from my own table. I don't know how much guessing I would have had to do on the count if I were actually counting, because I was missing too many cards AT MY OWN TABLE. This sealed it for me. Could I have fared better at different casinos? Let me know and I'll try when I can.

This 21 movie stuff isn't about gotchas or lying etc. I was simply trying to find an online review that spelled out the alleged flaw on how the team got caught. THAT MIT team--not some other one(s).

 

Rob, Kewlj, Redeitz. Talk about losing knuckleheads.

Rob and Kewlj still going at it about counting 2 tables. Going on now for how many years? Also, Rob, no one cares how many cocks Kewlj sucks. He’s a cocksucker period, case closed.

Redeitz still trying to get everyone to find somewhere in the archives Tipsters and Fibster articles about how great his sports picks were. Here is a tipster Red. No one gives a fuck about yesterday or years ago picks. Everyone that bets sports are concerned about the games playing today and did not go off yet. Give it a break Red. Your behavior is pathetic for your age.

Red, you are one of the greatest sports handicappers of all time. Kewlj. You must be one of the top ten card counters to ever play the game. To overcome all the casino technical and human efforts to stop card counting over the years, you are still kicking ass after what is it (?) 20 years now. You’re just amazing. Pretty sure casinos are stopping constant card counter winners with you being the exception. “GOAT”

Rob, I’m a fan and convinced you never told a bullshit story in your life. “GOAT” With that being said please don’t take this personal, you’re a full-blown fucking fool. You’re not fooling anyone with a half a brain.

With the three stooges posting here and it’s couple of followers, you have to wonder how long this place will last. Do you guys even realize what you did to VCT?

 

Blackhole! Good to hear you are hale and hearty!

Happy Thanksgiving!

I know you love current handicapping, so please check out the contest thread under sports on this very forum for updates regarding my results. If you sign up for those sites listed, you can follow along without having to read anything I post. You're welcome. And before you give me the "Nobody cares about contests" schtick, understand that some people do bet money lines. In fact, many people bet money lines.

And blackhole, just for you, I will limit my postings to that thread, just so I don't pollute this forum with my posts as opposed to those from folks with real gambling expertise, such as yourself. You're a legendary figure for knowing what you're talking about, so I'll say no more.

Happy Thanksgiving, brother!

 

My forum value continues to grow by the day! (or could it be recognition for my great record picking NFL ATS, aka: The Singer Five....) Who else could resurrect blackhole from his deathbed, and revive MrV to multiple forums, and just by posting a few provocative words!?

I too wish these folks a Happy Thanksgiving. I don't for a minute suspect they're well. I mean, getting them both to get out of beds to resume posting during the holiday season no less, it's another beautiful thing.

 

Thanks for the holiday wishes reditz.

My gambling days do not resemble anything close to expertise. If you had 10% of my losses over the years, you might even have some self-respect today. Saying I am a legendary figure fits perfectly with your different forum advertising campaign trying to get customers onto your picks. Obviously, you can’t make any money on your own.

If I know anything, I know you are a fucking asshole.

Fuck-you and the hillbilly jackass you road in on. Hope you enjoy the squirrel you shot this morning for thanksgiving dinner.

Oh yea, did I tell you to fuck-off.

LETS GO GIANTS

 

Now if you had tried to hire me anytime in the last decade, or tried to "buy some picks," I'd feel better about your truthiness. But since you haven't, or you're too dishonest to report the results of those attempts, I guess I'll just have to request that anyone trying to "buy picks from me" report the results of attempting to buy ANYTHING from me here and help blackhole out.

And it's holiday time, brother. We have special treats, like possum innards. That way, leftovers taste just as good.

''Possum innards are just as good the second day''. - YouTube

 

It does seem to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when Person A declares that Person B is selling something but Person A has never tried to buy any of what they claim Person B is selling, they risk being wrong. Call me old fashioned.

 

Rob, I am hosting Thanksgiving and trying to cook a turkey which I have never done before, so I don't have a lot of time and am not going to go searching, but on numerous occasions, including in just the last few weeks, during this very discussion, when I mentioned a few other people you could check with that also have stated they used this technique, your response was that you weren't questioning whether others could do it, you were only questing whether I could. Be honest Rob, does THAT sound familiar?

Bottom line is it just isn't as difficult as some people may think, especially people without a lot of blackjack experience. The late Alan Mendelson and you have always wanted to make it seem more difficult than it is. Yesterday you asked why some of the MIT players, with all their high intelligence and advanced math abilities didn't employ this play. My answer was that I suspected they did, when playing solo as this is a solo play. I didn't bother to even get into the "intelligence or advanced math ability part of your comment". But you don't need a lot of math ability to count cards. With hi-lo, which I use. you are adding +1 for every low card and -1 for every high card. You are adding and subtracting 1. That is something learned in kindergarten or first grade, not at MIT. Standford Wong once said "the act of card counting is easy. A monkey could be taught to do it. The harder part is figuring out how to apply it and be welcome back to play".

Anyway, I feel like this is almost a moot point anyway. Conditions have changed dramatically post covid. They had already started to change before covid, with less pure blackjack tables and more other table games and hybrid poker type games with higher house edges, but post covid that shift has been dramatic. Lower limit games have been replaced at many places, like all station casinos with a stadium blackjack type set up, where one dealer can serve 20-50 players. Even El Cortez has gone to a stadium blackjack set up. They used to have 6-8 blackjack games in the pit and now have 3 and a stadium set up next to the pit.

You need multiple blackjack tables and not super crowded conditions to employ this technique and there is just less and less of that. It used to be that if I played 5 or 6 casinos in a day, I would find one opportunity to track a second table, and get a second session at that casino. Now I think I have been able to do so maybe 5-6 this year.

Anyway, happy thanksgiving to you. Enjoy time with your family.

 

Blackhole, I don't think you understand the game within the game of blackjack. That is where I have done well and I am proud of that. Come to learn and identify (by trial and error in some cases) just what is and isn't tolerated. Most casinos don't kick out every card counter they encounter. It is bad business to come up to a table with other players and tell someone they can't play. Plus, as I have learned from a friend in the business, there is paperwork involved. Each time someone is backed off or kicked out a report has to be filed detailing the whole experience and what lead to it. So if you design your approach around that, playing moderate limits and shorter sessions, that is half the battle right there. I figured that out a long time ago.

The above is general terms. Of course there are some exceptions, sweaty casinos or even pit critters. You learn to identify them and steer clear....well I do. I don't know about someone like Zenking that seems to seek out and challenge them. You can sense when your play has exceeded the comfort level well before any kind of backoff in most cases. If you get backed off (and it does happen no matter how careful you are), but if you get backed off, you have probably missed some warning signs prior. But you don't really want to discuss blackjack or what I do, you really only want to attempt to discredit me, for whatever you reason is. So let's drop this.

As for your Giants...it is an interesting situation. They still have two games against the Eagles and I suspect the Giants to win at least 1, maybe both. But here is the funny part about the Giants. This is Daniel Jones final year of his rookie contract. The Giants had already given up on him. They made the decision to go with him this year, costing minimum and next year to seek a new QB through draft or free agency, depending on who is available. So during what was supposed to be a bridge year, all Jones has done is win. LOL. His numbers aren't great, but they are winning.

I suspect that doesn't change the Giants plans. They simply no longer believe he is the guy to go forward with and don't want to pay the money they would need to pay him next year. But every game he wins and particularly a playoff win or two and this decision becomes harder and harder to explain to the fan base.

BTW, the Eagles were in the exact same spot last year. At the start of last year, they had all but given up on Jalen Hurts. Last year was going to be a bridge year and having a stockpile of picks they were going to draft a QB last draft. But Hurts improved last year and even more this year and has won himself the job going forward. The plan has changed. Personally, I am not convinced he is the guy to take them anywhere.

I think the moral of the story is that if a team has really decided that a QB is not their future, it doesn't make sense to play him another year as a bridge to whatever move you intend to make. He might just improve just enough to screw up the plan (and get you a lower draft pick).

 

Redietz, have a good thanksgiving!

 

You give yourself too much credit Rob, but that is nothing new.

I decided to get active again when I read on WoV about Alan's sudden death; although he and I knocked heads on occasion I was saddened by his passing.

Seeing your comment about me possibly being too ill to post was projection on your part but yeah, I did rise to the bait

My health is quite good these days, in fact, I suspect that if we somehow "got into it" I'd prevail, due both to my greater size, strength, and conditioning.

But then again if you still have your old CIA skills / moves I might be in deep trouble.

Happy Thanksgiving.

 

Jesus, Rob, I just peeked at your plays. I am going to need every one of them, although I'm not decided on Bengals/Titans, but leaning to Titans. It figures -- I'm not gonna root against myself, so good luck. In one, I'm committed to Bengals. In the others, I get to change up to game time, and I haven't decided.

This Vikings game is probably a 1K to 2K contest swing for me -- I need the Vikings. Such is life.

 

Another game/another win....it's beginning to sound like a broken record.

At this point I really don't blame anyone who piggybacks my picks. But there's still a ways to go.

Kew, I don't really follow your issue with my saying "they" can't do it vs. "you" can't do it. I don't know anyone else besides you who's ever claimed they can count two tables effectively. I suspect there's forum people---there always is for every such feat. But my main items was to be told in which casinos I might conclude differently based on anything you deem advantageous to the counter, and where, if anywhere, can I find a published article that verifies the flaw you stated regarding how the MIT team the movie depicts, got caught and stopped?

MrV, don't be claiming it was Alan's death that revived you. That doesn't even make sense. And fighting? Huh? At your and my ages?? Old farts tangling is as stupid as it looks. Besides, I've only been in 3 of them my whole life, and I won all 3. Last was 1983. That's why I pack iron since.

If you're looking for something to do, bet the house on the Bucs Sunday

 

That wasn't said for purposes of challenge; I mentioned it to better explain my current physical condition.

You thought I was dead or invalid: uh uh.