Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

I get razing, a bit of banter and even some I got you moments. But what's the deal with all the constant hate or whatever you want to call it? Has getting kicked off WOV really affected people that much?

 

Ozzy,

Thank you very much!

BWC,

I'm not obligated to do anything, but apparently nothing is private as all of that personal information had already been posted here. That, of course, comes as a result of the fact that very few people here have any respect whatsoever for others.

Also, nothing to hide, so don't really care. Again, my primary concern is getting my actual name off of here for AP-related reasons.

MickeyCrimm,

Nice to see you! I don't think LarryS is the one who said it, in fact, most of my conversations with LarryS both here and there have been reasonable. It was probably Freddy, as Freddy seems to bring me up 4x-8x more frequently than anyone else.

AxelWolf,

I've got over 100,000 Page Views and nearly 5,000 messages that say yes.

 

Could you please clarify this statement, put it in context?

Are you saying 5000 messages came to you from people talking about what a few disgruntled posters say about WoV on this board?

I assume your are responding to Axel's post: "Has getting kicked off WOV really affected people that much?"

 

The context is this thread, specifically, which was started as a result of disgruntled posters who were banned from WoV. I didn't mean to imply that I have any personal messages regarding the subject matter whatsoever, just that it is the subject matter of probably half or more of the posts in this thread. Granted, not all nearly 5,000 posts are about that. I should have said, 'Posts,' rather than, 'Messages,' but that was not meant to be deliberately misleading.

 

Thanks for clarifying: I misunderstood.

It happens.

 

Mission...the point of my question was more about the double standard that is present.
There seems to be a set a rules to be followed. And then a different less defined set of rules for direct links to questionable material.
So there is hijacking on the zenking thread even by mods...and thats ok.....but for others its a suspension.
There are people listed on the suspension list, according to MS...for the purpose of shaming....but others are not listed. So some people deserve shame and some dont. Some people are suspendable hijackers and some arent.
And now there is the direct link rule where as long as you give a disclaimer almost anything goes....and that"almost" is a loosey goosey determination made by individual mods who are able for some reason to give larger leeway for direct links over direct posted material. Because for some reason having to make a single click along with a disclaimer....wipes away the rules of the board.
Why not just let people write disclaimers on the post.....and then have it followed by inappropriate content. Whats the difference between reading a disclaimer and then choosing not to read onward....or choosing not to click on a direct link.

Its a site where there is uneven shaming on the suspension list.....uneven hijacking punishment depending on if the mods participate in the hijacking because of course they are not going to suspend themselves, and uneven overall rules where now direct links can help people over ride the forum rules with just a simple disclaimer......and how much of the rules be over ridden....well thats in the eyes of the beholder.
You say porn is not allowed.....and the word shit is allowed......but there are so many gradations in between....where this slippery slope is set in motion where a disclaimer plus a direct link allows certain leeway.....but how much leeway???.....no one knows.

Honestly..what the difference between cut and pasting the articles you talk about(I havent read them) onto WOV.....with a bold disclaimer before them. Or putting a disclaimer and a direct click link. If you tell me there is a real difference....then we dissagree/ because that goes against the spirit of the rules.....its an end-around of the rules . Anyone can say"i cant say xyz on wov...so all i have to do is say it elsewhere and post a link with a disclaimer"

Just like freddy promising you that he wouldnt post your real name on this site.....and then follows the letter of the promise...by continually posting a link to your name. Again, another end-around a rule. A direct link is just as good as a direct posting on a site.

You once answered someone who asked what is proper language to use on the site...and you said something like...if you wouldnt say it to Mikes 8 year old kid.....then its not appropriate. WELL Mikes 8 year old kid can certainly click on a link. So whether its said directly on a post or indirectly through a direct link...its only a matter of 2 seconds difference....in being able to read the material in a direct post vs a direct link

Arguing that a direct link isnt really the same as a direct cut and past post.......is just like president clinton arguing "it depends what your definition of "is" is. Its just arguing a point that is obvious but can be argued for sport.

Ok so a direct link to porn isnt ok......so then you have to define porn. And a direct link to "shit" is ok. And now you have to define what other words are ok or not. Because on a direct link.......there are separate and more lenient rules as per some declaration that no one can point to.

 

LarryS,

The first thing that I will address is that the Rules are not always specifically defined, as you can see, the Rules consist of seventeen items with one or a few sentences devoted to each. As such, any perceived violations of the rules are taken on a case-by-case basis, particularly with respect to any violations that are not blatant. Again, most of the time, someone posting to a link that I deem objectionable for the site would result in me deleting the link or adding a disclaimer to the post. I would generally send a PM to the Member making the Member aware of my actions. I cannot envision a situation in which I would ban someone for the mere posting of a link unless it was an advertisement, which does have a specific rule. Otherwise, the link would have to be egregiously inappropriate.

If someone posted a direct link to porn, especially without saying that is what the link is, then there is a possibility I would remove the link AND ban the Member for a time. There is a fair chance I would just remove the link and post or PM a warning to the offending member.

If you wanted to have specific Rules for every link that could or could not be posted, you would probably end up with seventeen (or more) Rules just addressing links. You could do a blanket Rule that allows no links other than to casino-related Articles, or news sources, in general, but that would be a little extreme, in my opinion.

I list people on the Suspension List when I deem it appropriate. I can only answer for people who I have personally listed on the Suspension List. I use the Suspension List as a reminder of when people need to be unbanned. I list nukes on the Suspension List, unless they are sock puppets of previously banned Members, or they are banned for Spamming, or they only have a few posts.

I didn't make that a rule on the links, I am incapable of unilaterally making any rules. I would not say people can link to whatever they want with a disclaimer. I made a link to something that I personally wrote and specifically stated the writing would not be suitable for the Forum AND could be viewed as being of an objectionable nature. Again, if there is no distinction in your mind between a link to something such as that and something such as pornography, then you're right and I am wrong.

Mods have Suspended themselves in the past, I have been Suspended, I have asked for my own Suspension on one occasion. I think that is also the only occasion upon which I was Suspended. I post according to my interpretation of the Rules, if someone believes that I have broken a Rule, there are other Administrators to whom they may complain, including Wizard, who outranks me.

My reference to articles was articles that might have objectionable language. If an article uses the word, 'Fuck,' again, I don't see the problem linking to that if it is topical to the subject matter of the thread. The thread in which I posted my link is, 'Miscellaneous Discussion Thread,' therefore, I believe my link is topical because just about anything would fall under the purview of miscellaneous discussion.

He could post a link to my name if he really wanted to, my concern is my real name being associated in any way with gambling, and specifically, with my writings on gambling. If he posted a link to the newspaper Article, for example, and said, "Mission146's real name is in this newspaper Article," then I would have no gripe as long as he does not post my real name here. If someone were to search my name, it wouldn't show up here, that's the difference.

With respect to your point on the kid, again, I wouldn't link an eight year old kid to that CL page. I wouldn't give an eight year old kid a disclaimer and then link him to it. Eight year olds are not the target demographic of the site. I was speaking with respect to the profanity rule, which has to do with actually using profane language in a post. I don't even remember making that comparison to begin with, but maybe I did.
I'll put it this way, I wouldn't put a link to any pornography in one of my posts, disclaimer or otherwise.

Once again, you could make Rules, in advance, for every conceivable situation but they would be hundreds of pages long. Many of the actual laws of this country, on the books, have not always covered every conceivable situation, and I doubt anyone would bother to read them all unless interested in a specific matter. I certainly have not read every single law of every state/municipality I have ever lived in, just the ones that are relevant to me.

If you had some set of Rules that attempted to cover every possible situation and was hundreds of pages long, then you would likely have bans or warnings for breaking rules that the posters didn't even know about. The site would become more restrictive than desired. Someone would see a set of Rules like that and would be afraid to post for fear of breaking a rule.

I can't speak for other Admins, but I can say a large majority of actual bans that I have done have been for Personal Insult. I've also banned for trolling, I could be wrong, but I don't believe I have banned someone for hijacking and ONLY hijacking, so I can't speak to that. I tend to split threads if I deem something has gone too far off-topic and leave it at that.

 

no...i make no distinction between a direct link and a cut and paste direct post of that same article.

and if thats the case only one set of rules is needed.

not an unclear unspecified loose set of rules for links

 

In that case, you are right and I am wrong. Were you an Administrator at WoV, then you should toss me a Warning.

You used to be a Member there, of course, so if you are being genuine in your opinion that you find the link objectionable, then perhaps someone who is a Member there does, as well. As such, I have removed that link from my post.

 

Ah, now to the heart of the matter.

The Wiz nuked LarryS. but did not, to my knowledge, explain the specific reason for his action.

He said something to the effect that "you know why," IIRC.

Have you any knowledge as to WHY the Wiz nuked him?

What rule or rules were violated?

I assume you and MS may have discussed the issue via PM.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

 

MrV,

As you already know, even if we had discussed it by PM, I would not be in a position to detail any such discussion pursuant to the Privacy Rule. With that said, I do not recollect the specific reason for the banning of LarryS.

I have looked back and determined why I do not remember. Everyone is free to either believe me or not believe me, I don't care, but according to the Suspension List, LarryS was nuked in July, 2014.

I now understand why I have little to no knowledge of that. My posting record will show that I only had eight posts that entire month:

http://wizardofvegas.com/member/mission146/posts/113/

Five of those posts came in the same thread.

I was doing very little with respect to the Forum during that time because that is the precise month that my divorce was going through all of the mandatory counseling procedures, and eventually, the actual divorce hearing. Furthermore, I was basically working two full-time jobs during that time as I was employed full-time at the hotel (though not in a managerial capacity) and full-time at the Distribution Center. That eventually ended when I negotiated a more favorable contract with the hotel that also included me living at one of the other properties owned by the owner of the hotel in exchange for working there a mere one overnight per week. However, I don't believe that even occurred until August or September, so up to that point, I was working two full-time jobs.

In short, I was extremely busy and was paying little to no attention to the Forum during that time. As a result, I am not aware of the reasons for the banning of LarryS and probably only had vague knowledge of them, if any, even then.

 

RS, like myself, you know Zenking from another site. So you know he is young and cocky and arrogant to the point that sometimes you don't even want to bother answering and helping him. Even to the point that you just want to give him a kick in the ass. That's on him. I am not defending him or his attitude that can rub people the wrong way.

But lets take a good look at this thread. He started out with a long and pretty detailed post sharing his plan. And while his plan may have had some holes in it, and some things he overlooked, it was clear this was not a spur of the moment thing. From participating on the other site, you like me, know that he has been a blackjack enthusiast for a number of years. And he did some homework, researching some apartment communities in the area that he wanted to live.

Legitimate advice and comments about his plan was what he was asking for...not permission. So comments that he might want to consider getting a part-time job while he becomes acquainted with the city, and AP opportunities and what parts of the city are good(safe) and what aren't, were fine. That's good advice. Had I been a member of WoV, I would have recommended he avoid the area close to the strip that he was looking at. I mean I did that too when I relocated. I bought a condo a block off the strip in a highrise. Within months I realized the strip is NOT ground zero as far as AP/blackjack opportunites.

There were also a few decent pieces of advice and comments, like the fore-mentioned Axel's advice of hooking up with established AP's, maybe even joining a team for a while, while you learn some things. Rigondeaux advised "learn other stuff, diversify, or maintain a side job. Play poker". Even BBB suggested getting a part-time job as a valet parking cars, which would provide an income stream until he figured some things out. Those comments are fine....reasonable advice. There should have been more of that.

But there was less of that and much more discouraging type advice. The kind of things you would hear from a father, who's son had put forth such a plan. That's NOT the kind of stuff Zenking asked for or was seeking.

Let's look at just the first few pages (and this was before he became agitated and started pissing people off). One of the first responses was from Mathextremist, a guy with extraordinary math skills, but very anti-AP. He immediately when to the old argument that AP's don't produce anything", unlike ME who has a business that produces tangible goods and services. As an AP that tired old argument is offensive to me. I am offended every time I hear it...you should be too. But more important, that discussion was extremely misplaced here. ME had NO business expressing that thought. That is not what zenking was asking for and he knew it.

Then we get into BillRyan's post with exaggerated expenses, things like a $1200/month apartments, $200 for kitchen utensils, $100 new drivers license. What a crock of shit. This post was for the sole purpose of discouraging zenking. It was not practical or useful at all. I mean a single guy in his 20's looking to relocate and live on the "cheap" isn't looking for a $1200/month apartment, nor spending $200 on kitchen utensils. lol. He is probably using plastic silverware from the casinos, when he isn't eating at the casinos. And less expensive housing is one of the advantages of Vegas. BillRyan who recently relocated to Vegas, is an older "retired" guy from New York. He may need a $1200/month apartment, but a 20 something year old looking to live cheaply does not.

Oh, and ThatDonGuy adds in $200/month for groceries. Again, one of the advantages of an AP career is free meals, reducing or eliminating food expenses. That is sort of a hidden benefit or income. But again, this $200 expense was just added in an attempt to discourage.

Next we have Zcore, a guy I like, but he works in the industry and although an AP or former AP, is often discouraging towards AP's. So Zcore suggests zenking take his 50k and go to Bizbuysell and buy a legitimate business. Yeah...THAT's what he was asking......NOT!

Even people like our hero and friend Axel, who offered some good advice along the way chimed in with some 'snarky' comments like "may the force be with you" and that BillRyan's expense list left off "hookers and blow". Fleastiff concurred that Zenking should "find a girl to avoid spending all his money on hookers". I appreciate Axel's humor, but really in just the first few pages, zenking got very little of the kind of advice and comments he was looking for and a whole bunch of snarky type advice meant to discourage him.

At this point Mathextremist returns to his anti-AP rhetoric, asking "what do you do after you stop playing?" "what are the career prospects for an AP who goes 'legit' after deciding he is done spending his time 'siphoning' EV from the casinos".

RS, what I have quoted here was just in the first few pages of what turned out to be a 45+ page thread. The guy (zenking) received very little legitimate responses from people like you and I and Axel that had actually gone this route and followed our dreams and so much more of the snarky discouraging, fatherly-like advice discouraging him from doing so. Is it no wonder he became discouraged and developed a bit of "attitude", where things escalated over the next 40 pages, with almost the entire WoV peanut gallery deciding they didn't like his attitude and began ridiculing and attacking him.

And finally over-moderator BBB, puts an end to it by suspending him for "cussing". The whole group of WoV had ganged up on him and decided they didn't like him and his attitude (and I am not defending his attitude), is it any wonder he grew frustrated and cussed a bit? I went through that in my finals days at Norm's site, with the entire board fighting everything I said, not based on what I was saying, just based on that I was saying it. You feel ganged up on and get frustrated. So BBB's suspension completed the ganging up on. Yes, he cussed which was against the rules. But wouldn't a warning to a newer member, who so obviously was frustrated at the ganging up that had occurred been so much more appropriate in this circumstance?

In conclusion, the guy, received very little...almost zero of the advice and recommendations from legit AP's that had taken this route that he asked for, and instead was subjected to a bunch of 'snarky' comments meant to discourage him from pursuing his dreams, mostly by people who had no business even commenting because they hadn't gone this route and many weren't even AP's.

And BTW, you and I have both seem some posts by people REALLY ill-equipped and ill-prepared. Zenking claims to have a 50K BR and has been learning blackjack AP for several years. Now I don't know if he really has that kind of BR, or if he has the discipline and mental fortitude to succeed, but I believe he deserved to be taken more seriously and not ridiculed and belittled on a supposedly AP-related site, regardless of his youthful, cocky attitude.

 

Actually as I said I didnt read it. There is very little I find offensive. Heck KewlJ actually said my parents should have been killed in the nazi ovens. Its offensive....but in 2 seconds I am over it. I dont allow myself to feel anger or angst over the written word of anonymous people. and therefore i would be the last to cry about suspensions.

What offends me is mistreatment of my neighbors. And thats what I talk about here. Although I feel as a customer of wov, I was mistreated.....that boat has sailed. But that doesnt stop me from commenting on the mistreatment of others.

I never read your link. And if I did even if I found it offensive or crude.....I would just move on with my life. I would not do what people at wov do....and ask why you werent suspended.

I am not asking that more people be listed on the suspension list as a shaming device put in place by MS. I am pointing out that no one really needs to be listed since as much as MS gets joy on inflicting shame.....he has no control over me or others in that respect. He is not all powerful where he can force shame on others. I have total control over whether I feel shame. So I point this out as mistreatment of my neighbors via uneven punishment....some get put in the inept shaming board..and others are not.

Some get punished for directly using the word shit.....while others can do similar by posting a direct link under different rules.

Some get banned for hijacking, but if you look at the zenking thread....absolutly no one should ever be punished for hijacking....if NO ONE on that thread was punished.

remember this site(wov) is overseen by a man that has admitted to going on suspending sprees when he is in a bad mood. So if thats the case....anything goes when it comes to punishment. And it makes punishment doled out by the people who admire him to be suspect as well. ...since workers tend to take on the attitude of their boss.

So if the actions of mods seem to be put under the microscope here on this thread.....well there is reason for that....past behaviors combined with past comments by the over-seer....namely "dont let the door hit you in the ass" attitude....and the suspending to feel good after a bad day attitude. Once you have the head guy possess and articulate these views and behaviors.....then motives and reasons and intent, when it comes to punishment can be questioned. Inconsistencies can be questioned by folks viewing a board over-seen by a guy who suspends for mental health reasons. Maybe he attracted people like himself that needs suspensions as a salve for a damaged psyche. Or maybe they just like to follow the leader.

So, mission,I was not suggesting that your link be removed. I do not feel a sense of accompllishment from you doing that.
The intent was rather to show the uneven administration of rules.....where a way around the rules seems to be direct links...thats all.

 

It was probably freddy. My wife couldn't work. The banks lent me money 15 years ago. Grow up.

>>>Freddy didn't search the internet to find your name. Manboy put it on the Odds site and it's still there. Newsflash...other than to use you, he doesn't care about you or anyone else. You're so quick to make demands here and our admins accommodated you. That's what good admins do. Where's your hero manboy?

>>>You ask if freddy carries a gun. You ask if you should get a restraining order. Stop being a whining drama queen. We have enough of that here. Freddy is a well adjusted person who does not go after forum members or anyone else. Rest easy tonight when your head hits the pillow in the back of the PT Cruiser.

>>>Freddy did not mention one word about your bankruptcy and was not the one who posted the court proceedings.

>>>Freddy did not post the details of any Sheriff's sale.

>>>Freddy posted no photos of you here or anywhere.

>>>Freddy did not bestow the "Husband of the Year" moniker upon you.

How about posting a link to the Craigslist article? I'm sure some here would enjoy it...maybe even give it the likes that you asked for. It's a long title for a long story.

"I-76 Plaza July Seventeenth Three Seventeen P.M."

 

Honorable mentions









Probably Lip synced

 

Trolling. Larry is a troll from hell.

 

You guys just never give up on this AP nonsense. WOV is an AP site? When did that ever become a fact? Just because self-proclaimed AP’s claim it is?

Every time I check the place out, usually because something was written here about a thread, the bullshit and nonsense being discussed (not much different from here) becomes so overwhelming, one just can’t believe that many moronic out of touch with reality people could possibly be in one place at one time.

Most of all gambling sites at least to me are great entertainment sites to visit when you’re looking for a good laugh.

 

I also would have guessed that would be the reason, but as no reason was given, it's just a guess.

 

me too thats a vague one size fits anyone you want it to....type reason.
Hijacking, trolling, insult all can easily be in the eyes of the beholder....and some people even have balls enough to give the reason

Heck someone was suspended for insult of calling soneone " big genius" sarcastically.

so if feet are held to the fire 3 years later I am sure trolling is as good as any for the 3 posts I made. Theoretically somoeone can be labeled a troll after 1 post....since there is no specific definition of the word....

again, at this point I dont care and I didnt bring it up to Mission recently