Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

good post...........also just so you know you would have gooten suspended on WoV for saying he posts "petty bullshit" even though its true
that's how it works around there.. if you're on the wrong side of an arguement the mods will suspend you even if you were baited, trolled or insulted first

many people here in this thread can vouch for that...........

 

This hits the nail on the head. only a backward fool like Mike Shackleford aka Steve Urkel would let a problem blow up into somethin big like thiss thread and ignore all of the mistreated members who contribute to it.
MrV also made a similar point on WoV..................

by the way to everyone out theredo you all think that Mike Shackleford aka Steve Urkel suffers from aspergers or something like that?
Im not trying to start rumors or anything I'm honestly just curious..................

that might explain his inexplicable behavior

 

Nothing , while on this thread has done zero to defend himself or others at wov....other than call names.
If that is a "defense".......I hope I never get a lawyer like that.
Its so easy just to call names with no meat attached. Its so easy to scream "fucktard' "shit head" "get a life" amd make untrue generalizations like when he said when I was on wov....all I did was complain(when reality shows me over 90 percentof the time contributing to other threads )

Yet he is welcome here and treated by the admin as a valued customer. He mistakes this as some sort of acceptance that he is right. But all it is , is him being treated as an adult and allowed to vent. Something that is not available on the oppressive wov.

HECK, someone yesterday posted "fuck you" to the admin....and there was no retaliation. The admin smiled and told the idiot to vent all he wanted.

 

Is there a grown up version of this forum?
Where members discuss gambling and things related?. I'm here a few days now and all I see is poor schoolyard behavior, and crude language.
If you all behave like this on other sites,'s little wonder you've been exiled here.

 

Sure, it's called unsubscribe to this off topic board and find any of the many on topic gambling boards on this website.

 

Posts have gone missing! Where is my Mickey being Mickey post???

 

I guess that depends on your definition of grown up. You had to have seen this thread before you joined.

Welcome to the Lounge. The Lounge is provided for off topic discussions. It is clearly marked as such twice in the heading. No one ends up in the lounge a second time unless they want to be there. I'm not interested in Keno so I don't click on Keno and I certainly don't post there.

There are over a dozen forums here that discuss gambling. Simply click the one you'd like to discuss...roulette, blackjack etc and discuss away.

I don't feel exiled at all. I chose to come here as did most if not all others. It's funny that you mention schoolyard behavior because that's exactly how the site that is the subject of this thread is run...complete with tattletales and hall monitor mentality.

I could do without the crude language but without it some would not be able to express themselves.

 

so let me get this straight.............
you wander over to the off topic section and complain that posts are.................................................off topic?!?!?!
what a display of inteligence folks!

also ify ou took the time to actually read the posts here you'd find that theis thread is full of cogent arguments. the only reason you talk about "poor schoolyard behavior" is because thats whaty ou choose to focus on
your fault not ours.................

 

Ok, what is this little "web of trust" thingy under your handle, DeMango?

And while I am asking, what exactly are "points"? "Likes" are kind of self explanatory, but I am not sure what "points" are? Do a certain number of "points" translate into a free buffet, like in the casino?

 

Thanx for the explanation, Admin. I'll tell ya this much. I don't need that little "web of trust" thingy to know that I trust and respect DeMango.

 

I went and looked at the leaderboard (more correctly called Top Contributors) to see who you were talking about... then it hit me.... you were probably talking about ME! That's absolutely ludicrous if you think it's me. I think paranoia might be setting in due to all the feuding going on and the obsession you seem to have now. It's time to take a break I think. Damm, I would hope I could come up with something better than just shouting gay, fag, gay and invoking your name as my handle.

I have no desire to gay bash you or anyone on this or any site. What the hell would my motivation be? Seriously, I dont really care what you, Norm and Mike have going on, other than it's both entertaining and sad for everyone involved including the entire gambling community. I do wonder if any of you guys are spinning shit.

You claim NO FAULT? That's BS IMO. However I don't think you should have been permanently banned and I know you have less fault.

FYI a month or so ago I went to bat for you and said it was BS while at a dinner with Mike and some other members from the site, they also spoke up on your behalf. Mike told us to tell you, that he wanted you back, and he had no ill will towards you and you were one of his favorite posters and valuable members.

He just wanted you and Norm to stop the BS and STFU(My interpretation)

IIRC I asked on the forum how to get in touch with you, I think Romes and RS said they could get you a message. Soon after that I seen shit blow up even more. I just figured there was no way in hell you two could ever coexist, and you were never going to let this go. I figured I would be wasting yours, theirs and my time. I decided to just stay out of it especially behind the scenes before I got drug into it (like I am now)

Do I joke about it(gayness)? Yes. Do I care who's really gay or not? HELL NO! Be Gay, Be Proud. My brother is gay, and I have good friends who are gay(no, it's not like saying I have black friends). I support your/gay's rights to get married, be in the military, and most everything else. I don't support gays having special rights.

I oftentimes joke with people about being gay, guys who I dont think are actually gay. Why?... Calling a straight man gay seems to get under their skin more than other names/insults/insinuations. I like to bust their balls(Insert joke about KJ). Especially if they get caught doing something that might be considered gay IE. Driving a Miata, getting a manicure, listening to some boy band, watching some chick flick(unless they have hot chicks). Even if I know someone who is gay, I would joke with them as well, especially if they did something not considered very manly. (I tend not to associate with people who can't joke around or are to serious)

FYI I have never made a sock puppet on any forum.
My writing style, punctuation and sentence structure is very decerable. There's a possibility I have made a second account at some site years later after joining, because I forgot that I made an account or couldn't my username and password.

I'm fairly sure I was with or around other members of this, WOV, and other forums at some of the times that MR Gayjay was posting. Hell you can probably synk up a time where I was posting at WOV and this guy was posting here.

They can check my IP address. There's a good chance he and I was logged on or lurking at the same time your attacker was.

If you were a betting man? You are, so let's bet if im kayjayisgay(or whatever the FK is name is), Ill be happy to let an independent person check all my devices(perhaps this site tracks mac addresses and or device names)

You think because I am friends with Mike(he's unfairly suspended me to) and other people at WOV I have a reason to attack you? I dont kiss ass just because I'm friends with someone or who they are. If I see some BS either way i'll usually say something. Theres time where I think a PM is in order.

And, if I was going to make an account just to bash you, I would have made many accounts a long time ago and starting with FairyLarry and Fariyfreedy and harassed them.

I have had my own issues with Mike and I have said so. I have had my own issues with BBB and I have said so, I have had my own issues with Mission and I have said so. I have had issues with all 7 of the secret mods as well.

I do have some issues with you, and I will say so. One big issue.... YOU WON'T EXPOSE WHAT YOU SAID TO MIKE. But you have no problem cherry picking what he said, that's chicken shit .Mr. Ihategayjay probably seen my post at WOV regarding that and realized what you did was cherry picking BS as well.
***Please expose what you said just before Mike told you to fuck off?****(obviously he said fuck off in a nicer way)
Let me guess.... it would make you look bad and seem crazy, and we would understand why Mike told you to go pound sand, and probably any sane or not person would do the same thing?

It just doesn't add up that Mike wanted you back and was trying to find a way, but then suddenly he did a complete 360 and put you on his forever shit list.

I think you might have said something so outrageous that you knew Mike wouldn't let you back and that's why you went out on the attack and swore you wouldn't come back.

TBH I dont think this Kjayisgay guy cares that you are GAY, he just wants to shut you up for or just start shit for some reason.
I also said a few other things I take issue with.

You have to admit you seem a bit crazy regarding ALL of this forum stuff you are/have been involved with. The normal thing to do when this internet stuff starts heading off the deep end.... Stop visiting forums, go to work, go to the pool, decorate your house(isn't that what gay guys do? (- spend time with your husband or friends. Don't tell me this has not been consuming your life, because I dont believe it.

When I started posting at WOV I never had any intentions to be a top poster on WOV. I did it to make RL friends and find some partners after an AP break. Gay, straight, BI, guy, girl, socially awkward, smart, dumb I didnt/dont care as long as they are mostly good people. IIRC I even extended a friendship with you. It has worked out 1000x better than I expected.


I think I know who may be bashing you(I won't say who or even give to many clues because I may be wrong like you are and I haven't really read all their posts) I will say this....I bet it's someone who is publicly or and privately supporting you, someone playing both sides, someone who loves and thrives on causing shit, someone known to attack the weak and even the strong. Someone who knew they couldn't really out argue Larry, Freddy and the others. Someone who thinks they are smarter and better than most others. If you were black they would have said N N N N. If were jewish they would have went after that. I bet he would attack anyone.

I'm disappointed you stooped to the level you're saying others have.

Ps. I'm glad you have been welcomed here and found some fast online friends(some are good guys) It's all warm and fuzzy for now, but I guarantee some of them people don't give a shit about you, AP, BJ or anything, they probably dont even gamble/AP nor come out of their parents basements. They wouldn't/couldn't help you if you're life depend on it. They will turn on you like a school of piranhas given the opportunity once you don't benefit their agenda. Unfortunately there's been a few good hearted blackjack players who suddenly think there's something wrong with you. IE "I'm not sure what's going on, but KJ isn't who I thought he was, I'm not sure I would do business or share information with him especially if he's cozying up to riffraff" (You probably don't care, and please don't shoot messenger)

 

I'm sure you meet me prior to that I thought I recall you even telling me you seen me playing the $5 Riverside progressive and a few other plays in Vegas. And some of the plays you mentioned I played heavy (Draw till you win, you mention at the Frontier and other places? non setting meters? various higher progressives and promotions? ) Certainly if you knew and hung with Randy, we can call him. Not to mention Danny L, Brickman etc etc.

 

Interestingly, this site says no censorship, yet splits off topics very rapidly. This is an effective form of censorship, out of sight out of mind. The wov site does the same thing.

Call it what you will. But don't call it any fairer than the wov.

 

Thank you for weighing in Axel. And yes, I did think it was you. At first just a gut feeing (not even sure why) and later because that claim about cherry-picking that was made by this cowardly sock puppet, that was almost word for word what was said by you on WoV.

I actually never intended to share the info of who I thought it might be. Mickey gave his opinion that it was Qfit and I wanted to say that I really think that is not the case and just sort of went with it. So, I'll blame Mickey! I am kidding, Mickey has enough he is being blamed for. I said it and I take responsibility for it. I take you at your word that it wasn't. And will also happily (insert joke here) offer my public apology for sort of insinuating that it was.

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I am going to answer and respond to a few things you said. First, I didn't publish every word of private conversations between Mike and I, for two reasons. One, I was advised by someone that that could be problematic, legally. Others have since said that is not the case. I am not an attorney (and I slept in my own bed last night....not a Holiday Inn Express), so I have no idea. Second, there were many conversations between Mike and I and most of them are fairly trivial. I posted a few things that he said that I felt were very relevant.

But I want to answer your charge so here is what I said that set him off. For context it was in regards to this statement that he made “I know this whole thing was handled rather poorly but reversing myself is only going to cause Norm to come after me instead of you”.

I said "I don't consider what I am doing as attacking you, but I can promise you this....I will not let this go. I will bring up your handling of this situation, every chance I get. In my book, next year. If I decide to do GWAE as Munchin has asked. On every site that I participate on......for the rest of my life. And since I am almost 20 years younger than you, that should cover the rest of your life. Every couple weeks or couple months, I will be somewhere questioning your integrity, honesty and professionalism. And hopefully the guys here at WoV that know that you were unfair will continue to bring it up every few weeks."

He apparently took that as this horrible threat. I was trying to make the point that while he acknowledges that he was wrong in the handling of this he has also said he is afraid to do anything for the consequences it will have from Norm. So I tried to make the point that not fixing what he has acknowledged was a wrong doing on his part is going to have consequences from me and maybe a couple members of WoV, that continue to bring it up every so often (and BTW, that is not something I co-ordinate with anyone. That is completely on their own). Admittedly, not the nicest thing I have ever said, but I don't see it as this horrible threat that should have had him fly into a tantrum, do a reverse of 180, to agreements that we were very close to, and cut off all communication.

I am still not going to publish every word said. Mike can do so if he wishes. He even has my blessing, if he feels it is relevant. Really I posted more than I needed to. There are 3 things he said and you can say taken out of context or partial quotes or whatever, but these statements stand on their own and are the absolute most revealing statements in my opinion.

(1.) February 25, 2016 WoV Private message from Mike Shackleford to KewlJ
Shackleford: “Norm has complained about the post in which you write the following: Those three words were, 'mostly self promoting'. It does not matter that you said several nice things about Norm before. He was very offended by that comment and filed a complaint as a violation of the truce agreement. I found it in violation as well and had to take action”.

This is important because Norm (Qfit) repeatedly lied to the membership of WoV stating that he never contacted Mike and complained about me.

(2.) April 25, 2016 DT (Diversity Tomorrow) Private message from Mike Shackleford to KewlJ
Shackleford: “I know this whole thing was handled rather poorly but reversing myself is only going to cause Norm to come after me instead of you”.

In my opinion this is the single most important thing Shackleford said. The rest of the conversation is irrelevant. Context is even irrelevant. This statement stands on it's own by itself. He has not disputed that he said it and that should speak volumes. He should answer for it. He owes that to both the membership of WoV as well as to me.

(3.) May 19, 2016 DT (Diversity Tomorrow) Private message from Mike Shackleford to KewlJ
Shackleford: “You have some legitimate complaints but I can't just let you back and continue to bash Norm, who I consider a friend”.

This one is nearly as bad, IMO. Context really doesn't even matter. These statements stand on there own. Again, I will point out he is not disputing that he said these things, because he knows he did. I give him credit for not lying and disputing them I guess. But he should answer them, not just go radio silent and hope this all goes away. He really owes us all that.

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Now moving on.... One of the things I always liked about you is that you call people out when it is necessary. When somebody shows up making goofy and ridiculous claims, as happens periodically, you are quick to call them out. Sometimes you are calling them out even before they are done speaking. lol. I believe as AP's and as professional AP's, we have not only a right, but a responsibility to call out absolute non-sense, just as you frequently do. Now I do it much less than you. For one, my area of AP is much narrower, almost exclusively BJ. And two, I generally wait to let the person hang themselves as long as their claims aren't so egregious that they might be damaging to anyone who listens and takes that advise. And that's all that this whole situation started from on Norm's site. Myself and 2 other known professional players, called out someone making absolutely ridiculous claims. It was out of character for all 3 of us to do so, but hat should tell you something right there. And as professional players, it was and is, not only our right to do so, but our responsibility to do so, much the same that you often exercise that right and responsibility. And despite everything that has happened, I don't regret doing so one bit. It really is my responsibility to do so.

You stated that my reputation is damaged and legitimate members of the community are backing away from me. You are absolutely correct. One person made that his agenda, Norm Wattenberger (Qfit). Simply because he doesn't like my opinion of him and his handling of this situation where 3 of us called out this particular member making ridiculous claims, he has trolled m to different sites, that he didn't participate on with a single agenda, to damage my name and reputation and influence the owners or administrators of that site to shut me down. I am glad to see that many members at WoV recognize this, even if you don't seem to.

And that is where Wizard failed so badly. He should not have taken sides. He should not have sides with an outsider who was not a participating member of his site (but was a friend), against someone who was a 4 year, regular contributing member. He should not have first attempted to quiet me via a truce and when that didn't work....ban me. I never asked anyone to stop Norm from voicing his opinion. If he wanted to participate on the site great. If he wanted to ONLY post to contradict my opinion, a little less fine, but still ok. He should have the right to be heard....just as I should.

And finally, I thank you for your concern about me not spending enough time with my family and friends. Most of the time, my message board participation doesn't take up much time. Usually half hour sometime in the morning while preparing for my day. Maybe a bit mid day when I get home. A bit in the evening while watching TV with my housemates. It isn't like I have put my career on hold or anything. I am still doing my thing nearly everyday.

 

One other thing I forgot (if you can believe that with all I wrote).

"Cozying up to riffraff". Don't do this Axel. I am responsible and take responsibility for what I say. I am not responsible for what other people say. Norm Wattenberger frequently makes this claim as well, saying I have participated on a hate site, that frequently spews anti-semetic, racial anti-gay, ant-this and that, hate.

The fact is that my opinions are limited, so I make my case where I can. The sites that I am now limited to, have blackjack/gambling/AP sections (in this case a section on discussion of WoV). That is where I participate. I am not responsible for what others say. Please judge me on what I say, not what other's say.

 

My apologies again. In my haste to respond, I must have skipped over this section of your post, which I really want to respond to.

First, thank you for going to bat for me. I greatly appreciate that from you, from others at this dinner that you speak of, and many that have spoken up at WoV (and even here). It is very humbling to think that some people appreciated my participation enough to do that. I also think a lot of that is less about me, or some great admiration for me and just the fact that many fairly objective people, meaning people that really don't have a dog in this fight, just recognized that this situation was handled very unfairly and I was the recipient of that injustice.

And that very fact, that so many people, even people that are great admirer's of Mike, even people that consider themselves friends of Mike, including other Mods, have spoken up to him, makes his response or lack of response, so incredible hard to believe. Everybody, including Mike himself, by his own statements knows that he his actions were wrong and yet he refuses to stand up and correct the situation. What kind of person does that? And maybe more importantly, what kind freaking hold does this Qfit have over Mike? THAT is scary!

"He just wanted you and Norm to stop the BS and STFU(My interpretation)".

I reject this! Norm is NOT a real member of this site. Did he not prove that with 5 years 9 months of non-participation before returning with this singular agenda to silence me? Has he not proven that in the 6 months since his return? In all the posts since his return he has not made a single post that wasn't about me or this situation. Name me one positive contribution that he has made. And I also reject that "Blackjack weather" thing that he briefly promoted. Self-serving promotion.

This guy Qfit does not intend, nor has he ever intended to be a productive, contributing member of WoV and for Mike to treat this like he is, with equal footing to someone that has contributed positively for 4 years, 3200 posts, a blog in which I probably shared too much about my experiences, and a Q & A interview that I was requested to do, for which I had reservations about, is insanely insulting, friendship or no friendship.

I don't know exactly what this friendship with Norm is all about, but this hold Norman has over Mike is bizarre. It is like no friendship I have ever witnessed. Quite frankly friends don't put friends in the position that Norm has put Mike in, nor place the demands that he has placed on Mike. And especially considering negative public comments Norm has make about both Mike personally (that he didn't trust him because of his relationship with Venetian) and negative comments about LCB (he would not post on as site owned by an online casino organization).

And for the record, I also believe your suspension was unfair. AP's have a right to try protect their AP opportunities, IMO. And no one knew that doing so with the flagging feature was against the rules. Just another case of making rules up as he goes along.

 

great job by the admin.............................
I was going to request the posts above be moved back from the graveyard to this thread but the admin already beat me to it!
fantastic!!!!