Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

What say I? I'd say I'm pleased with this presentation. Pretty good =)

But I may disappoint you in that I don't have much for a counter point. I can see easily that your points have merit. I can't really debate them, so all I really have are some additional points to consider.

I'd be interested (not in doing it, but in looking at them =p) to see how these numbers correlate to actions taken. I mean, I'm sitting here thinking "These rules LarryS is bitching about have been there the whole time. The mods, pretty much the same thing. The site GREW under this condition, how is the condition now all of the sudden at fault?" Of course, that's just a thought as I don't have the info. It'd be curious to see if there was sort of a graphed timeline of visits, so that they could be superimposed over the graphed info for actions. The amendments to the rules, the adding of mods, the sale, etc, to see if there's a correlation. I think that'd be the best (if not perfect) answer to all our claims, but it also seems a fuck ton of work I can't imagine anyone volunteering for.

But certainly for some, myself included, EB's words ring true. It's not quite as interesting as the WoV I grew up with. I know a part of it is simple tolerance. I've been there a while, so a lot of topics are either a rehash, or something I already knew. But, and here's my opinion, I think the way the forum is supposed to be (the "supposed to be" I described in my interpretation of meetings I had with Wiz), is almost a cause itself. As I said, I really think the place is SUPPOSED to be milquetoast. I think the desire is for folks to solve differences or engage in debate pretty much exactly as you and I have been (sans profanity). A place where the better debater wins by being a good debater, not by cursing your opponent into submission, or crying foul, "how dare you", etc.

But what brings eyes? If you say anything other than drama, I'm going to have to strongly disagree. What's the biggest thread over there? The suspension list thread, and it's drama from start to finish. What threads do YOU remember? How about you, KJ? Do you remember where they solved to the 5th decimal the advantage on 9/5 JOB? Do you remember when they scouted around to find the best pizza in Vegas? Of course you don't. But I bet you remember the Suspension List. I bet you remember the HotBlonde Challenge. I bet you remember Ahigh's DI experiment. Fuck, just look at this pile of mess here! Was it freddy that kept trumpeting the views as they went over ten fucking thousand, and then another ten, and we're still going? Drama, conflict, that puts asses in the seats. You talk about slot play and it's pretty much just gonna be Axel and Mickey talking. Talk about craps and it's just RaleighCraps and MrV chatting away. Even if you go off topic into an area almost everyone has stake in and get into the stock market, even that's pretty much just steeldco and SOOPOO. But when you have a firebrand, suddenly everyone is in the mix. Ahigh was a firebrand. AxiomofChoice, EvenBob circa 2011 or so, Buzzard, Mickey, Beethoven9th, 1BB, these are the types who generated TONS of views, TONS of comments, TONS of ACTION. But what if the one thing that's guaranteed to bring in views is in direct conflict with the site's standard of behavior? I think that's the case here, and I think it's part of the reason for decreased views.

I guess what I'm saying is that your points are valid and almost unable to be debated. HOWEVER, I do think it's far too complex a situation to blame on a handful of points and say simply "Your fault".

 

I contacted Zuga. If you remember, Shackleford and I were in discussions concerning my return back in May. Shackleford suggested that I contact Zuga. He stated that he would contact Zuga prior to my request, recommending my re-instatement and inform Zuga that I was a well liked and respected member. If this seems strange, it did to me as well at the time. I have never commented on it, but this was the action of a guy, who had the power to re-instate me himself, but doing so would be admitting he was wrong and just like most ego-maniacs Shackleford COULD NOT bring himself to do that. He is not a big enough man to admit when he is wrong. So he was going to have Zuga re-instate me, so he could avoid admitting he was wrong.

However, before any of that could occur, is when I wrote the email which some perceive as a threat, saying I was not going to let this go and Shackleford did a 180 reversal and recommended to Zuga that I not be re-instated.

The bottom line is that in my case as well as a couple others that appealed to Zuga, Zuga proved to be anything but objective. I mean if the person you are appealing to is going to defer back to the original person's opinion, then what is the point of an appeal or reconsideration? That would be like filing an appeal in the judicial system and having the new Judge ask the old judge, who made the original decision, for his opinion. Makes No sense.

 

Do me a favor Fisk, don't even bring me into it. You can play your head games with Larry, pretending to be his friend and have 'productive' discussions with him. Don't do it with me.

I am a very frustrated and quite disappointed in both you and Mission, showing up here to play head games. In my own case (and Larry will say that's all I care about), both you guys commented that you thought I got a raw deal. But yet, I haven't heard either of you stand up and say or do anything. As a mater of fact Mission made some kind of comment about having "pull' with Mike and 4 different times asked if I wanted him to intervene on my behalf. 4 times, I responded no, because I didn't want to ask someone to do something that could cause problems. But yet he asked 3 more times. It was like he wanted me to ask him. I shouldn't have to ask. If you are a moderator on that site and you feel, I or Larry or anyone got a raw deal, unfair and/or undeserving treatment, you should speak up! No if's, and's or asking anyone if they want you to speak up on their behalf. If you feel something is wrong or unfair, speak up! Don't be a F-ing pussy, go-along-to get-along, bump on a log.

 

Totally think this is a misplaced me me me comment.

Fisk /Facedidnt come here with an agenda. In fact I didnt engage him in any meaningful conversation till I watched for a while and was convinced that he didnt have an agenta. And I noticed that his involvement here at the beginning was a watch and see behavior to see if he was accepted or if his presence just didnt pour gasoline on the fire. I think most feel from his actions that he is speaking for himself. isnt worried about what others back at wov think, and is as biased as any guy who enjoys where he works.

Thats what I call being a stand up guy.

Some are disappointed that I didnt tell him to go fuck himself...and that he didnt tell me I was full of shit and need to get as life.

Because before he got here...thats all there was. People from Wov, telling me to get a life, asking what my motives were, just declaring I am commenting out of spite of being banned, ....but never addressing the specifics being put forth.

Look at the freddy/won exchanges....same type stuff.

FACE allowed this thread to settle down to what was intended. I never intended it to be a "hey mods come here and help me get re-instated" thread,. I intended it to be a place that might evoke change....and it has. Mission being accomplished.

So instead of the thread continuing in the ........."fuck you"................oh yeah...."fuck you deeper and harder" climate,,,,it veered back on track to how it was originally intended.

Both mission and FACE brought some extra eyes to this thread,and I think it opened peoples eyes on wov, and maybe made them think about change. In that way I think Face may have in an unintended way sped up the change.

 

I have stated before that I like both Fisk and Mission. In general I think they are good guys with good intentions.

BUT, I think you are being played LarryS. I think Fisk does have an agenda here. His agenda is to calm you down, agreeing with you that you and some others may have been mistreated in hopes that you will quiet down some and stop bad-mouthing WoV as you have been doing for a year now. Think of it this way....you are the screaming infant and Fisk is holding you, patting you on the back, shushing you, telling you everything is alright, in the hopes that you will stop screaming.

Call me cynical or selfish or whatever you like, but it is hard for me to think much of people in authority (and that's what mods are), who say "yeah, I think some of you guys were treated unfairly", but I am too afraid to stand up and say anything about it.

 

I will use this analogy, it might be worse than the cowbrain one, but I will give it a whirl.
Isreal is about the size of NJ. Over the last 50 years or so, there have been hundreds of terrorist attacks. School buses, Cafes, schools, movie theaters. There isnt a person in Israel who hasnt been personally been touched by losing at least one person to terrorism. Friends relatives, loved ones, neighbors. Everyone knows someone who died at least tangentially.They personally know the face of the dead man /woman/child
In the united states this isnt the case, Therefor a politician with the view of Donald Trump on immigration would be accepted greatly in Israel, but in the USA....not so much because to most people in this country, terrorism is something that happens to other people. They have not been touched personally by it.

So, there comes a time that WoV becomes Israel. After years of the issues I stated(and maybe other issues I havent stated), the board is saturated with people who have either run into some of the issues personally, or know someone who have been adversely affected by them. And the tipping point was met for slow deliberate exodus.

Hey its a theory.....not a statement of fact .

But its not rare for a business to mistreat people with poor customer service...and have a delayed reaction to it.

My guess is that in about 10-20 years someone with Trumps exact immigration policy will be elected present....after there are a few dozen more terrorist attacks and more geographical regions get personally effected.
It takes time....just like it did on WoV.

 

Are you kidding me. His presence here give me more credibility to the lurkers from Wov who think someone needs to come here and tell me I am full of shit.
He would get a heros's welcome back there if he did that.
People at Wov who respect Face as one of the more level headed mods, all didnt get a memo stating that Face really doesnt believe what he is saying here..so dont get excited, its just a plan to shut down the thread. Those people read this thread now, and might say "hey wait a minute, we DO need some change here". Absent that secret memo....people reading this thread over the past weeks actually see "one of them" agree with me on some points.
If anything he fuels this thread. Because if in 3 months someone comes over here and says "LarryS YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT"......all I have to do is point to the quotes from mods like Face and Mission stating otherwise. If anything the mods here for wov gives me future ammunition to fight against people who dont want to debate..and just want to call names. And THAT is powerfull ammo.

He has done nothing bu strengthen this thread. I really dont see people back at Wov getting a memo explaining the hidden agenda. I think they come here and read this exchange at take it at face value.

 

LarryS, every time you go to WOV to read up on all the juicy gossip you ever-so-desire, remember you are indirectly benefiting Zuga and Mike. Every view WOV gets makes it a little better because they can charge more for advertising and whatever else. It's probably best you just quit going to WOV and reading all the stuff there. I'm on your side, Larry.....I look out for my fellow neighbor as well. Such good people, you and I, are.

 

Just something I was thinking about KJ. AND I'm not trying to get you riled up. It's really not directed at you, but more about how people are pointing out WOV is a business. I'm not even really asking you, because you were the victim of strange circumstances( NORM ).


But if it's a business and and Mike makes a business decision to ban someone (no matter what his reasons are) how can someone fault him for that? ITS A BUSINESS DECISION He's in charge of WOV decisions like that. He's earned the right and has the freedom to do things his way and it's his ass on the line.

I read somewhere that many wealthy businessmen admitted to making many wrong/bad decisions they just happen to either make more good ones than bad ones and or one really good one, oftentimes making decisions quickly and confidently, they also change decisions when needed but..... slowly!!

No one can truthfully say Mike hasn't been successful. He obviously made a good decision quitting his job and spending full time on his site and making a name for himself and one of best odds/gambling sites in the world. He obviously hired some good people. He got himself well known in the gaming industry. I'm absolutely certain the guy will always have a way to make money on his own terms(within reason)
He's got himself a family, friends, business connections, he's well known, liked and respected in the gambling world, he's got a nice house, plenty of money, he travels he gets to spend plenty of time at home and he's still doing something he loves. That sounds successful to me.

His site, MAINLY ADVERTISING ONLY ONE online casino made him a significant amount of money before the sale.... that's very impressive using one casino for the most part.I don't know many sites that had much success not advertising many casinos including the scummy ones. Obviously he had a hiccup when black friday hit and gambling online started declining
along with Bovada making major changes across the board with many affiliates and pulling out of NV and other states.

Again, I'm not saying his decision banning you or how he handled it was right on a personal level however on a business level he may have handled it exactly how many others would have. Especially if its true Norm is known for threatening legal action and there's a potential future business opportunity and he's known him as a colleague or friend.

If it were me or someone else in your position, I feel you would voice your opinion or whatever for a while, but at some point you would accept it for what it is, and realize life isn't fair, but now it's Axel's burden to bare. You keep it in the back of your mind but realize it's time to move on and do your thing, because it doesn't sound like no one is budging, and we are just beating our heads against the wall.

PS. How's the progress on your book coming?

 

According to Larry that's how it works, if so, yes he and others are contributing to http://wizardofvegas.com/ It's informative, interesting and controversial. There's a chance you might get banned, suspended, loved, hated,find drama, get bored, entertained, be enlightened, make money,find a system or actual winning methods, learn some math, get good gaming information, find a friend, get a stalker, get rich, lose a bet, win a bet. Hey it's a gambling forum so take the risk and visit the wizard of vegas AKA WOV.

Probably anyone new here that reads this thread, people who hadn't had an account at WOV ends up getting one, all because of him, others and this thread. I know at least 3 people that made accounts there just to PM me. One was actually asking me about Bovada (He probably signed up on BV at WOV, thanks Larry) I'm sure far more people sign up for WOV because of this site than it deters.

 

And all this time I thought it was the *cough* models.

 

You are 100 percent correct- And the funny thing is there is absolutely next to zero useful
Information that is added to this site- it's just a bitch site and then people go to Wov for real gambling related stuff

 

Obviously not the brightest bulb in the box, missing the irony of that comment.

I've exchanged a few emails, unfortunately it is true.

Some of us go back simply for the challenge.

Haha, such as waving a tin cup, begging for help, couldn't be much of an AP then. He wasn't even upfront in that regard.

Yes it did, but he still ended up waving his tin-cup and paid no regard to the mods who looked after the site while he traveled the world (by himself you notice).

Or discover how anal retentive some people are, in particular regarding sock-puppery. Not that anybody would glean anything they could actually use from those WoV members that have chosen to participate over here.

Not really, it is good for gambling maths, it's like a frat clicky boys club, titillation, outlet for washed up players (EB), anal retentive personalities (arsey-RoyW), vulnerably, easy manipulated by a selfish self-centered controlling jerkoff, who never got his end away often enough.

You have the mentality of a imbecile teenage spoilt brat. Ooh 'ee "my site is better that yours, my site is better that yours". ah shucks, I wish I was this clever when trying to get my point across. .

 

Hide behind some more sock puppets- how many of your teeth are missing ?
I'm sure you are just pissed that zuga blew you off because he recognized that you were a scumbag

 

I was polite to Zuga actually. I'm missing no teeth, other than my wisdoms. Talking of wisdom...........

 

Tell everyone your screen name on Vegas casino talk.

 

according to Face and Mission.....valid points are being made on this thread.

If you want to start a new thread about the quantity of "useful info" on various sites....please feel free.

 

Just to show how ignorant RS and Axholewolf are. Months ago I submitted my comment that posters are customers, and contribute value because "hits" on a site allow advertising dollars to be charged. I was corrected by Axhole and MC on how the banners work. So I didnt change my assertion that posters are valuable and should be treated as such. But I did change the mechanism of action as to why. My contention is still valid. Just the mechanism of collection was corrected. So yes posters are of value. And Posters can help create wealth for the owners. Posters are not just takers that should be treated as leaches. They are the sugar that attracts the flies that in turn click on the banners. THe flies are also attracted by other thing like articles...but still the message board postings are a bit of sugar as well.

So RS/axhole , the great debaters comes up with a phony debate point that maybe was valid.months and months ago. A little late to the dance arent you little guys?.

Secondly, I am on wov, maybe 3-4times a month. I get most of my info from freddy on this board. And I get info from emails of people that got my email address from WOV profile. I had an email address till I got my 30 day ban, and then seeing the writing on the wall....removed it.
I have communicated with them for many months before this site caught my eye, and still continue.

Since changes have occurred based on comments here....especially the decision to greatly reduce the entries on the list of shame on wov....the thread that I kept up with(discussion of susp list) is for the first time, sparsely attended. Now THATis progress, and one less reason for me to go to that site.

So first, the assumption that I am on that site alot, is a false assumption
secondly, the idea that I am generating advertising dollars for wov by visiting the site sparsely, is an erroneous assertion ...and a hypocritical assertion in that the people who are doing the asserting originally corrected the mechanism of which advertising dollars are collected
thirdly....and even if advertising dollars were collected solely on "visits"......the ability to evoke change makes it worth it for me. Then it would be a yes/yes deal. The owners make more money, and my neighbors get the benefits of change.

 

and I read "somewhere" that most of the failed businesses needed to make drastic changes and failed to do so quickly enough
They were married to their business plan even when the reality of the market dictated a change. Sometimes a major change.
A successful businessman has to be deft and agile and make changes on the run.

 

Ok, first of all, I don't really get the 'blank quote' thingy.

I don't think the business model, especially consumer business model correlates 100%. This is a very unique business model. Members on the site contribute by participation. In the case of some of the AP's, these are guys that are successful at what they do, and have chosen to participate and share their experiences. In most cases there isn't a whole lot of benefit to doing so and in some cases it is even detrimental to do so.

Again, I don't think the business model works. I have said that with LarryS a number of times. As far as the AP's, I have always considered it more a community. There are several sites, that make up the AP community. A site like WoV (presale) benefitted by attracting and having some of these AP's, guys successful at what they do. And when you are able to draw top guys in their field and they contribute for years, you don't treat them like shit. I actually remember after Norm posted I believe his first post back after 5 year 9 month absence, Mike made a "welcome back" post to Norm. In that welcome back post, Mike stated that "we have some top AP's that participate here". So then he goes and bans one, one that contributed regularly for 4+ years, for no real reason??

I have yet to hear from a single person (other than a couple KJ haters stemming from situations long ago) that participated at WoV or knows of the situation that doesn't think I got a raw deal and that includes the other mods. And with the benefit of hindsight, it is crystal clear to everyone that Norm had no intent to participate, just showed up to have a regular contributing member silenced. Despite my criticisms of Mike, he isn't a complete idiot. Surely he recognizes this too. He should be man enough to admit and address what everyone knows was a mistake.

VERY slowly. After a very lackluster first half of the year, slightly below expectation in both my blackjack results and our machine play results, I have been on a real tear for about 7 weeks. Currently I am running significantly ahead of expectation and have a real shot at hitting the million dollar career earnings mark (AP earnings from all activities, not just BJ) before years end. I know this is kind of irrelevant whether I hit it this year or next and focusing on this milestone goes against my normal mindset of just playing and the results will all "work out" in the end. I know focusing on this milestone as much as I have is kind of vain and maybe even counter-productive (or card counter productive), but it is kind of a cool (kewl) milestone, and because I have kept such accurate records, I will know exactly when it is reached.

So between playing more the past 7 weeks, which I tend to do when I am going well and now football season, which I set a side one day a week (sunday) to relaxing in the back yard, poolside, watching football all day and grilling, I just haven't made much progress. It just isn't my top priority right now, and to be honest, I am wondering if committing to this book at this time, was such a good idea. I am right smack in the middle of my career, with hopefully a number of years left and wondering if waiting until closer to the end of my career might not be a better idea.

ps: you sent me an email several weeks ago, I answered it, with a request and heard nothing back from you. I know you said it is an email account you use infrequently, but how about providing me with a better email account?