Misc WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying

`Guess what? Here's the title and original author of this thread..
Lounge WizardOfVegas Forum is Dying
Discussion in 'Lounge' started by LovePotion9, Sep 5, 2015.

do you see your name in there? I don't. But you slimed your bloated ego on this board anyways...Isn't there at least 2 boards on here with your name at the top? Isn't that enough? Hope no one responds to your shit. Plus, you're a complete hypocrite because your already trying to shmarm yourself back to Wov. This is my one post to you dude, and I don't care how you attack me back, I'm not going to give you another minute of my time reading your shit. Going to ignore wizofnobs and you later tonight. Yea, I know, that breaks your heart.

Kj, shove it. Go back to wov so you can believe it revolves completely around you. Good luck.

 

Nate,
he should have from the beginning started his own thread...."I threatened the wizard and now I am fucked".

 

Why should I do that Larry? There was already a long running thread discussion WoV.

Just looking back, during the month of march 2016, I was mentioned 47 times in this thread, with more than half of those mentions coming from you! To refresh your memory, here are some of your quotes. (I only looked at the month of March, so I am sure there are many, more examples)

"KJ was valued by other members for 5 years running. He donated his time and effort and was repaid for it with a suspension that didn't have to be".

"KJ is the poster child for uneven punishment".

"So they got rid of KJ, who actually was of value to the gambling side of the board".

"KJ was suspended for reasons that aren't even listed in the rules, like breaking a truce".

So it's ok for you to use my name and post about my poor treatment and ridiculous banning at WoV to make YOUR points, but when I post about it, you get all bent out of shape.

Ummm....yeah nate, I do see my name....many, many times. (see above)

Fuck you nate! I was invited to participate here not once but twice, but management!

In 2015 when the site started, I was invited here. I posted once but decided I didn't want to participate here. Then a year later when I was directed here by Shackleford, in my first post I stated that I had some things to say but "didn't anticipate being a regular contributor here". I immediately received a PM from management asking me to be a regular contributor and even asking what they could do to make the site more to my liking so that I would stick around.

So I was invited here TWICE, so just shut the fuck up!

 

BeechedWhale is one dumb-fat-ass bitch. Spending a whole month of her life, doing a no paying job (how do you find such manipulative mods manBoy), investigating if Garnabby had created a sock-puppery account. Decided he had and subsequently nuked the account. Well firstly, he has a jumbled incoherent writing style, but just in case you didn't notice that, he was using the same fucking avatar.

I mean how fucking stupid do you have to be to not notice the same cookie monster avatar¿ Maybe the calories are clouding her vision, all she can see are the round circles of donuts. And now she has more doubts, thinks the board where she works is not totally free of sock-puppery, maybe asshole-roy can help her out, an expert in that field he is.


Anybody know if manBoy bought / imported his wife, he seems to have this knack of appointing mods during vulnerable periods of their life, which of course makes them more susceptible to manipulation (we've all been there at some stage). Frisk may be a class above the rest and an nice guy, but whom in their right mind dedicates their time, even one single minute, plus once you factor in some of the mods are not financially flush (doesn't matter if they crave money or otherwise). Then from the sidelines see manBoy benefit to the tune of $2.3 MILLION and he does not reward the moderators, people he could not have managed the site without. It matter none if you were looking for financial reward, do it for love or otherwise, an offer would have been nice, then you could have said, "it's alright manBoy, I won't accept your money, send me some donuts instead".

I mean how the fuck does Shack manage to find such gullible people to piss on, I could only imagine getting away with pulling a stunt like that with child (not a kid around my way, they'd put a cap or blade in your ass). And to rub salt in the wound, he fucking tried the same thing with his own board members, knowing a sale was in the pipeline.

A c*** of the highest order, who thinks welshing is the ultimate sin, but taking people for a ride is not. Yeah I really crave to be part of that group and the quicker Tubby nukes me, the more harder I will laugh.

 

How does it feel to be a troll? Do you get a membership badge?

 

like I said..here we go again

 

Such a self-centered, selfish act not to financially reward volunteers after such a windfall (I don't buy into the bullshit, I am rewarded in other ways, I'm calling it for what it was, from the outside). Only manBoy gets away with publicly treating people like this. What makes the situation even more warped, Mission, Face and BBB remain, the latter feels compelled that she is doing her job, enforcing rules because (as she stated), BECAUSE SHE HAS TO?? WTF

You must be blinkered not being able to see how screwed the entire situation is. It is like having some weird emotional hold on others, I'm sure one of the three has experienced it before. How fucked up is that??? Three manipulated victims, one of which is behaving like she doesn't really want to, rather has to because it is what is expected, it is their job, Only a very controlling, narcissistic, self-centered person could pull off such a stunt and continue to pull it off having pulled it. Way to go manBoy, you sure know how to go fishing for low esteem and taking advantage of it. Of course they don't see it that way because they are viewing the situation from the first persons viewpoint.

Failed marriages, skint, compelled to act in a manner you wouldn't normally, one of them claims. You see your boss struggling financially & waving his tin cup (wonder if they contributed), then receive pennies from heaven, with ZERO TRICKLE DOWN. I got news for you, no matter how any of you attempt to dress it up, ya'll got played by a selfish prick and continue to get played by somebody who really doesn't give a fuck about you. You may think he does, he may tell you he's grateful, however his prior actions speak volumes.

I suppose this is how the business world operates, shit on the little people, take advantage of the vulnerable. What makes this case sad and appalling, is not only are the little people not even being paid, they are oblivious it is even happening, one must have a real low self-esteem, which kinda figures. You can bet manBoy is being paid for his continued presence and now Chan and Zuga continue where manboy left off. Yes that's right, the mod's are no longer working for manBoy, they are operating for the owners of the forum, not manBoy. They make think otherwise, now they are being used by a rich Eastern European / Asian.

Why don't they request gratitude from them, they certainly could afford it, having splashed out the cash and pulling in thousands per month through affiliation or do they think Chan or Zuga would be on that board monitoring it 24/7, would they fuck, they'll go find other fools to do it for no pay. Who else would tolerate this shit, I certainly wouldn't and have a strong feeling those staunch WoV'ers that have gravitated over here also wouldn't (excluding Frisk). I'd like to see manBoy pull the same stunt on those WoV members whom are professionally and financially successful and see how far that gets him. manBoy knew the score and now others, to whom the mods have zero affiliation continue the trend, yet with their blinkered vision, they do it for their guru, who is no longer the guru and was never able to cut it in the gambling world, other than for his maths. Reminds me of a Moonie or Scientology indoctrination.


Oh yeah, and I'm fucking wrong, you wish

 

In the title, jeez. Not after you started ranting to yourself on the board.
Invited? And your word is somehow more honest than everyone else?
You invited yourself.

 

They agreed to sign on with no pay, like so many other types of internet shit and it's highly likely there's wording in the bylaws about volunteers should expect no reward or payoff should the company change hands or some other internal windfall for the owners happen. This is standard with almost any company around in the states. What we morally believe should happen can be found to be covered by bylaws stopping that from happening. No company is set up to give rewards/pay to people agreed to be volunteers and wouldn't set the company up to be beholding to every status of employee's.
We are talking about volunteers, (which I'm surprised aren't paid) who, again, AGREED to work for free. And the form they signed usually states, no rewards, no pay in the foreseeable future. Maybe some wording about future paid employment.
So legally, technically, Mark doesn't owe anyone in those positions any compensation. Maybe we think it's morally, ethically poor not to reward people, but owners don't have to. Maybe he threw a chicken mcnugget party for everyone.

I think it's more a case that anyone in those positions have no say, not in their power to appeal. And if anyone does speak up, they will be let go and another will instantly take their place.

 

JK
I agree with the well thought out post above. Wov is now and was before a "for profit" venture. Michalebluejay has stated that before he left the employ of wov, it was pulling in 6 figures. Even a 500 dollar gift card at christmas for the mods at that time would have been nice. Or even now.

I respect Face,but the line that he wants to give back for the benefit he recieved......might go well when you had an owner perceived to be financially strapped. But now with a nameless faceless corporation in charge with money making banners galore....wtf.
Beached whale has referred to her mod position...as a "promotion". I sense she feels she is important.....promotion....really?

I would sometimes helpout a former employer who gave me my first break as a kid and got me interested in my profession. If he had an emergency like his wife needed chemo treatment, I would fill in for him for 2 hours....and I never charged him...although he offered. Here and there I would do that. But then he was bought out by a big corporation.....I never worked there for free again( to be honest I couldnt even if i wanted based on rules and regs of the corporation).....but if I could ...I woldnt.

 

I doubt very much you sign any papers. If I were apointed moderator of any forum, I wouldn't expect to be paid. However when the board is sold, considering the amount it was sold for, you think the narcissistic owner, might just care to remember those that have dedicated their time in keeping it clear of spam, enforced the multitude of anal rules and so on. But no, manBoy is manBoy, a selfish nerd who only thinks of himself.

No he doesn't, morally he could have thanked his hard working mods with remuneration, at least making an offer, knowing their predicament, which is common knowledge. Not only did he shit all over them, this is what controlling self-centered narcissistic people do, it continues for the benefit of wealthy individuals. This is not some bang average forum we are talking about, rather one which is generating mega dollars. The founder of this site was generating over $50k PER MONTH a few decades ago. I shudder to think what WoO and WoV are bringing in in this day and age. $2.3 million is not chump change, it was paid based on the revenue, and the mod's with whom everything would have been more difficult got diddly squat, because that is what he is like, a'la running competitions for pennies.

I very much doubt it. The abuse mod's get not only here, who would open themselves to that for no reward? The landmark has changed, it is no longer just a community, it is big business. This is not some run of the mill forum, generating cash to pay for hosting fees, a new server, faster pipes as most forums are. It's about putting food on everybodys plate except those at the bottom.

If people have helped you get to where you are today, it was the right thing to look after them, you don't take them for granted, treat them like a commodity easily replaced. Which is not the only issue, they can't see it, they are blinded by some weird sense of loyalty, "he helped me, now I return the favour". Wrong, now you are enriching Chan even further, manBoy already took a shat on them, now it's somebody else turn. As I say, manBoy certainly has a knack of finding the right people.

Who's trolling? I am however waiting for my AP badge! Which is not a reversal of ante penny LOL

 

Damn it, Larry. It's such a mixed bag that can't be answered so simply. I'll see if I can keep this under ten pages =p

I think you AND MrV are hitting nails on the head, but I think you're missing that there's more than just those nails in play. For example, Babs made the comment about WoV being "Mike's living room". I personally had made that comment before too, before I was a mod and before Babs was even a member. You keep harping that it's a business, business, business. I think the real truth lies in the middle.

It's both. When it comes to nothing more than putting asses in the seats and letting the revenue flow in, I'd be hard pressed to find fault in any of the myriad things you've said. But I never, through my interactions with Mike in forum or in person, felt that that was his end goal, to maximize revenue. I very much got and still get the feeling that there's a concrete theme which will not be sacrificed. While stiff rules make the place a bit milquetoast, I feel that's exactly the way he wants it. While staunch submission to math is boring and dry, I feel that's exactly the way he wants it. It's not about maximizing a metric, it's about having HIS place the way HE wants it.

I know you see it because I see it, too. In fact, my sig over there "The opinions of this mod are for entertainment purposes only", is a disclaimer and a bit of a scarlet letter I carry precisely because of the atmosphere. That particular incident involved Gr8player, who, while completely harmless and, IMO, one of the most gentlemanly people I'd ever met, went against the grain and refused the kool-aid. His trouncing STILL bothers me, because I didn't find him a charlatan or even an asshole. He was just a guy who enjoyed playing Bac and did it his own way. His way involved a belief that he had an edge, which all disagreed with, but I definitely felt he was bullied, harangued, and ultimately exiled for little to no reason other than that. He wasn't brash or boastful, never demanded acceptance or respect, he simply posted and handled every arrow and dart flung his way like a pure gentleman. That DOES suck. And perhaps your issue mirrors that in its own way. I do feel a little of it is simply the way you express yourself, as, like you said, you prefer the bazooka approach. But yes, to answer your question, I think you were sent away because you didn't "toe the line".

And that's OK, IMO. If you want to go out for dinner in a sport jacket, sweat pants, and flip flops, you'll be more than welcome at Applebee's, Red Lobster, Olive Garden, et al. But if you want Ilio Di'paolo's, you need a suit coat. That's just the way it is. You may not like suit coats, own a suit coat, or ever agree to wear a suit coat. That's your prerogative. But Ilio's isn't about maximizing volume, it's about a certain atmosphere. WoV strikes me as no different.

/shrug

 

Oh boy. This will involve a might bit more speculation than I'm comfortable with, as just about every single thing has come second hand and word of mouth, but I'll give 'er a whirl...

If I'm to believe the things said about QFIT (I have almost ZERO personal interactions with the man) he's a bit of a control freak. I think it was here where it was said he trolls the forums looking for his name and then threatening owners if said mention is negative? Well, based on what interactions I did have, that accusation isn't exactly from "left field". Seems totally reasonable based on what I've seen.

So somehow you pissed him off. You say it was just because you championed a different way to play, nothing more than that, and I've no reason not to believe you. So you pissed him off.

Then he brings the shit storm to WoV. Now, Mike's words make me lean towards you. There's something about me never having heard of Wattenberger, not in my profession, not at WoV, and Mike's language "someone whom I consider a friend", that makes me feel that "friend" was used very loosely, as in "A man in my same profession whom I respect", and not "We have BBQ every Thursday". Couple that with the rest and I get...

You pissed Wat off. Wat finds you at WoV and starts some shit. Mike knows OF him, respects him as men in similar professions do, but also has a resource in you he wishes to protect. He doesn't want to alienate a possible partner, he doesn't want to hurt a member, so he goes about it pragmatically. No fix, no soothe, just each of you do not address the other. He doesn't have to tell QFIT to fuck off, doesn't have to tell you to just sit and take it,... other than a multi-day group therapy, that was probably the only instant "fix".

You didn't think that was right. Maybe it wasn't. I'm not one to lie down, either, so i totally get it. I totally understand your accepting of the "truce", I can totally see why you would at the time, and I can totally see how it would eat at you until it forced you to change your mind. But at the end of the day, YOU had the option. Continue your successful membership at WoV, or follow your heart.

You chose your heart. I can't really fault that, but... look, I have a fuck ton of Pyrrhic victories under mine own belt, too. Sometimes being right is worth the damage. Often times, it is not. But there's not really much you can do about it except learn, grow, and move on. Reach out and try to mend fences, or walk away with your head held high on your own terms. Just... just don't pile damage onto damage. It ain't worth it.

Find peace. Do that and you win =)

 

Fisk, do you think gr8player and others who did nothing wrong should be invited back? Did you ever or would you go to bat for any of these mistreated people? They are certainly a better caliber than the trash that has been polluting your board as of late. The only banned member to be reinstated that I can remember was juicie jennie. Go figure.

Manboy to gr8player: "Your message is 180-degrees opposite of mine. That said, it is indeed my wish that you resign your membership and take your ideas elsewhere". Despicable! As long as you're a member here I'll tell you what to think. Straight from the handbook of Sun Myung Moon. And they wonder why some call it a cult.

The actions of a true selfish, insecure manboy. A real "man" would have found a way to keep a good poster like gr8player.

 

I totally agree....and appreciate your suppositions. Mods should not be put in the positions of having to offer suppositions. Their boss should not put them in that positions. And their boss should adhere to the "transparency etiquette" that he and mods have adhered to in most cases.
And I agree I was banned for being on the wrong side of an issue...after 4 posts in 3 days on a topic that manboy needed to squash.

If you think my idea that wov is a "business" has at least 50 percent merit.....where it is both a business and "mikes place"......then my comments did indeed have some credibility.....enough for discussion. Not an off the wall theory proposed just to piss people off. Not a trolls talking point just to stir the pot and cause angst and anger. It does have grains of truth in it......that can be discussed. It was a discussion that needed to be presented....and as I presented it here.....both you and mission have seen some value or truth in the things I said. And somehow some of those things I talked about here (and tried to talk about them on wov) have been addressed at wov with less of both an iron fist and demeaning attitude prevailing. Even the "shaming" via the suspension list has dwindled.

In the end, your analysis and supposition of the reason for banning , points to being on the wrong side of an issue. People can be very abrasive if they are on the right side. As they were in baiting GR8PLAYER....and ALan M.....one was banned and one left after insults were allowed.

I think your suppositions were on target. And as promised I am going to end this back and forth as promised.....as this thread is not about me. In fact I am old news......as changes have occurred since..and for that I am pleased on behalf of my neighbors.

 

Getting back to the topic of this board

I have said this abut the patrick board and I say this about wov, where the people in charge ban for being on the wrong side of an issue...

If a board owner/manager is going to ban or punish people strictly based on content.......and will not admit it...and hides behind "trolling" or "insults" or "we all know why"......then announce it to the public. On the front page of the message board post the following in the name of full disclosure for customers
"This site is run by Mike Shakleford. If you have differing views from him, you may be asked to leave and if you dont leave, you may be banned internally and if you are not banned,the other posters will be allowed to mock and insult you till you decide to leave on your own"

THAT would be a truthful statement based on the past punishments. Based on Gr8player and Alan M.
that would be under the category of truth in advertising. Otherwise, absent that "warning" people would feel this is a board of free exchange where as long as they were civil, their ideas would be welcome.
So why not be honest and put that "warning" up. Heck if that was up there......this thread would be invisible...it wouldnt have happened. Uneven punishment based on ideas and being on the "wrong side" of a debate is a big part of this thread.

So if thats going to be the prevailing standard...why not articulate it.....why not be honest....why not give customers a "heads up".

 

I'll answer your second question first and say yeah, I've certainly gone to bat. Some, as in gr8's case, I did so publicly. I just went and looked for it but it was going on 3 years ago and didn't waste anymore time as it's hard to find, but I'd basically pop in to defend him. In his case, I felt he kept getting harangued to "POST THE SYSTEM" over and over and over again. I could see through simple reading comprehension that the man didn't have an "If X then Y" type of system but rather played hunches and feels. He said as much in his posts, and such a "system" was untestable because you couldn't write it down. Other posters, usually new ones, would pop in about Bac, and gr8 would be right there, and the SS would come in right behind until every Bac thread turned into a bash gr8 thread. I did not like it. I did not and do not for a second think he actually has a winning system, but not all gamblers are looking for that. Especially the Bac crowd, who are horses of a different color for sure, are big on energies and auras and shit. To them, that is FUN, and FUN has VALUE. So, since gr8 was a gentlemen, not a charlatan, and tried to help in his own way, I'd pop in and try to get him the space I felt he deserved.

It was one of my bigger failures. I got piled on right along with him, and by people who I'd had long and pleasurable friendships with. Wasn't but days later that he was asked to leave.

But even so, I DO, absolutely, understand WHY he was ousted. As one poster in that same thread you quoted put it "all it takes is a newb to come in and read it from here, the reputable website, and believe it's true, and get lambasted." That's not what Mike wants. FUN is not his goal. MATH is his goal, and just like the suit coat restaurant, if that's not what you're after, you need to look elsewhere.

Admittedly, much of my public "defense" was my typical diplomatic style, so I wasn't exactly a shining white knight storming into the scrum. We had 1BB for that. A majority of my defense came behind the scenes.

As for bringing everyone back, we have that here =) But I dunno. There are people I'd like to see come back, some because it "wasn't fair", some because I just liked them, some just because I do like drama. 1BB, the Crimm, gr8, mkl654321, LarryS, KJ, I can think of a few quickly that I'd like back. But there are certainly some who I'd not wish to see again, and others still who I hope to have an opportunity to punch right in their fucking face (lol), so no. I can't say I'd be for letting everyone back. (pause) And I just reread your question. No, one of those whom I'd like to strike was one who "did nothing wrong" (other than be themselves; just so happens their self was a cunt =p)

You don't have to end on my account. I rather enjoy the redress and debate.

I do think your gripes have some merit, for sure. Like I said, if the end goal was simply "asses in the seats", I'd be hard pressed to argue ANY of what you've posted.

But I feel like you're not understanding or purposely ignoring part of what I said. WoV is not like here. It's not just a place to hang and talk and throw around wild claims and engage in witchcraft. The very soul of the site is based on truth through math. It's as theist as LDS.org, only their god is numbers.

And that is Mike's goal. Not to be famous, or popular, or well liked, but to be RIGHT. That is his goal, his reputation, his legacy. You might not like the dry and dull postings, or the milquetoast behavior, or the unfairness that those looking for fun don't have a place to sit, but if what you want are facts and figures and correct information, the place and its members are simply peerless. EvenBob does just fine talking about his dog, or railing against YHWH, or trumpeting the latest from Fox News. That cagey old bastard ain't been banned once. But get him talking about RNG's and the entire place will turn on him. That's just the way it is because THAT'S ITS PURPOSE, to separate fact from fiction.

I just can't fault that. I too disagreed, hence my defense of the gr8 one. But at the end of the day the purpose of the site is truth in numbers. Gr8's fun, EB's opinion on RNG's, Singer's claim about German computers and VP, The Flaw, B79's lucky monkey, Varmenti's...whatever the hell Varmenti had, there's simply no place for it there. WoV is the antithesis of that stuff and that stuff is understandably bounced.

 

Face, thanks for the response.....but enough about me....this thread isnt about me me me...and I always respected that.

In general I do understand the need to challenge mis-information. However that can be challenged with cogent arguments against it. Rarely does a newbie read one post and nothing before and after it. That concept fails the eye test. Now if someone posts something and it is not challenged...and it just sits there...and it is erroneous....I can see manboy posting a response.

And then there is the non gambling sections that are PROVIDED.....where there is room for opinion.
It seems being on the wrong side of finite math vs being on the wrong side of social issues, political issues,"discussion of the suspension list" issues are not comparable

". I think some liberal posters get away with more than conservative ones; that could just be that they are better at phrasing their personal insults than others. There is one contributor, who has not posted here in over a year, who openly insulted people and got away with it; that person also sent nasty PMs"..PER RonC.....(i used bold and underlined)

So RonC is a member in good standing. Not a trouble maker. Yet he has the same issue with wov, as I had on this thread. This was in July that he posted that. Its a long post. But this is the part that applies to this thread and my point.

Its one thing to treat people with strict discipline regarding right and wrong of accepted math concepts and solutions to math based problems. I can see the right or wrong with no gray area philosophy.
But if a site offers other sections and topics for discussion that by nature has different sides and opinions innate in its nature....then dont treat it like the math based section where there are right and wrong sides. Because in these other areas there are many facets to the opinions worth discussing. Crushing opinions for being on the wrong side of those non math based topics is just wrong. It has nothing to do with manboys math vision of the board.

 

Thank you for giving it a whirl, Fisk. I would say you are not far off in most of your thoughts, even things you are just speculating on. I would quibble on me initially "accepting" the truce. There really wasn't a choice there. It wasn't a suggestion.

I will also make one comment about "he's a bit of a control freak". Ya think?!? The man (Qfit) has threatened numerous site owners/administrators with law suits. I don't know if the administrator here wants to weigh in, but even on this site, a site that Qfit never became a member and participated on (to my knowledge), he still threatened the administrator here a while back, with copyright violations, concerning things another member said.

 

I have been consistent in wanting KJ back and still (perhaps in a naive way) think it can still happen. But I look at it in a business way and a personal user way. If there is any value yet to be gained from WOV, KJ adds to it from a business standpoint way. Maybe that is a Zuga question, is there added value left, or is it not worth the effort? Are the ads of WOV adding value to the purchase price? Or is the potential value added so minimal compared to WoO that who cares. My guess is this is the right answer. Other options are the Chan empire is so big neither options matters. Nobody blames George Clooney for "The Good Journey" (look it up) so WOV isn't worth the bother, which I agree with. At some point in the business world you make business decisions. Successful people make them everyday and make the correct one a majority of the time. Even the wrong ones are usually only a small percentage of overall value. Others continue to make the wrong ones and are in a death spiral...see Sears-K Mart- JC Penney as ones we all know.

As a user, I want KJ back and if I am right in my assessment Mike controls that because, honestly no one else in power cares. I see neither ever giving enough to settle it because they both are too damn stubborn. Both live in Vegas, both have probably have crossed paths in casinos multiple times. Both are good people as far as I can see, never meeting either one personally although some on here will disagree. Being a member of a forum is minor thing in the world but if it matters to one, anything is possible. But I believe it can happen. But I also see what Could be Mikes concern on what I see as a threat made from KJ. Why he did it is debatable but he did it.

I question if KJ would even get anywhere if he contacted Mike. Again, never met him regardless of what some may think. I am looking at this situation as I would as an outsider, I am taking no sides. But I think anyone looking at it objectively has to look at it from all sides, even those who don't fit in their world.

I hope there is a solution, inside and better yet, outside the forums. And regardless of anything ever happening, I wish continued goodwill toward KJ because as far as I can see, he is one of the good guys out there.