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Blackjack Current feud with Qfit (Norman Wattenberger)

Discussion in 'Personal Feuds' started by KewlJ, Feb 13, 2017.

  1. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    By coincidence, today being one of those days that I have too much free time and got caught up on some of the sites that I occasionally read, I was alerted to a current feud that Qfit (Norm Wattenberger) is engaged with....I don't know....I guess an online blackjack personality via youtube....Michel Morgenstern. Ironically I came across this feud by reading Norm's own site.

    Now let me say up front that I don't know Michael Morgenstern, although I have seen a couple of his youtube videos where he claims to make pretty large sums of money as a blackjack card counter. I haven't looked into his claims, and in no way am vouching for him. As a matter of fact, my initial thoughts were very skeptical of most of what he claimed on different video, some of which he just happened to have upwards of $120K in bills stacked in front of him....(yeah that kind of thing). So although I didn't bother to look into the specifics, my first impression was some kind of marketing ploy type thing.

    So here's how this story becomes relatable. At some point in recent days, Michael Morgenstern joined and posted at Norm' site and to no surprise was not received very well. Had I been a member of the site at that time, I probably would have joined those members in their skepticism.

    So after that unwelcome appearance at Norm's site, I guess Michael Morgenstern had some negative things to say about Norm and Norm's site and boom....a feud was born. It's always an identical M.O. with Norm....anyone who has a negative opinion or thought about Norm or his site or in my case....one of his members, comes under attack by Norm. He tries to eliminate any negative opinion or thoughts that bear his name or site/products name (Qfit). I guess it's a protecting the brand thing. Say anything negative of his brand, which might effect software sales and you are under attack.

    I have thought about this before, but this youtube video that I have linked below kind of really shines a light on just what Norm is and is about. At about the 3:20 point of the video, this Michael Morgenstern, on what Norm is REALLY about, when he shows Norm's website with all of his marketing software products, books, videos ranging from $85 to hundreds of dollars for the complete software products. Michael Morgenstern even points out the monthly fee that Norm charges for a membership to his site.

    When you really stop and look at all that merchandising, you realize Norm Wattenberger (Qfit) isn't this great guy trying to give back to the blackjack community as he claims. It is all about business....all about merchandising....making a buck off the community that he tells you he cares about so much. And THAT explains his actions. All the feuds. All the attacks of anyone with any kind of negative thought of him or his products. The banning of anyone who has any kind of opinion that might effect sales. The trolling of those, like myself to other sites and using whatever tactics necessary to get other site administrators to silence them. All the threats of so many people with lawsuits and complaints filed. It all makes sense now. I actually feel a little foolish for not understanding what this was all about. :(

    Honestly, I have been perplexed as to why I was run out of the Blackjack AP community, by this guy, to the point of trolling me to other sites, just because I had an unfavorable opinion of something (or in my case...someone) related to his site. And I was equally perplexed as to why this respected math guy would defend things he KNEW where not true. I guess I am the naïve one. I just never realized it was just about the almighty dollar. But then again, Norm Wattenberger chose a career as a wall street banker. :rolleyes:





     
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  2. nate

    nate Well-Known Member

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    For once I agree with you, and all the info he collects he for sure can resell to other marketers just like wov and this site. I don't believe for a second that this site does not sell some of your information. Nothing real personal, maybe emails, or posting history interests. Norm has forums just to draw more eyes. That's it and why he's so protective. Spot on.
     
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  3. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    I think Norm has met his match with this guy. Dude's got brass.
     
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  4. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I thought you might like this guy. He seems right up your alley. :p I don't think he is very credible though. But if he gets Stinky Wattenberger all riled up, that's a plus in my book. ;)
     
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  5. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Well-Known Member

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    If it is the dude that supposedly burnt 10k in cash in his back yard, I'm very skeptical. First off, its dark as hell. Second, he is holding the money kinda funny. He "flips though it"(barely, and again its dark) holding it funny, it's kind of like a card mechanics grip or something strange like that. He never fans it out. There is not a continuous camera shot on the "10k" stack prior to tossing it in the nighttime fire. Then, when he is supposedly tossing it in the flames you can't see the denominations of the bills.

    I dont know if it was legit or not(only he does), Whatever the case, he certainly didn't do what a "normal person" would do who's trying to prove they can burn 10k in a fire just to prove a point.

    If he did really burn 10k, that seems like a very narcissistic selfish thing to do. There are people who are deserving and in need of money.

    I think RS can post up the video, I could not find it, but i didn't look that hard either.

    Isn't it a crime to burn money? If so, and he really did burn 10k, he just videoed himself committing a crime and then posted it.

    If I was going to burn 10k in the fire I would bet 10 people 5k that I was going to burn 10k.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  6. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I didn't see that video, but I think that is the same dude. He has a number of videos. There is quite a discussion about him on the blackjack site since he has made friends with Norm. lol Someone on that site mentioned that burning money is illegal (I wasn't aware) and so this guy video taped himself committing a felony. lol Also, it was discussed that he is a convicted felon, having served 7 years for robbing a bank, so he might not be the brightest person anyway.

    Calling people out as a fraud has basically gotten me ostracized throughout the blackjack AP community.....but what the hell....If I had to guess, I would say the guy probably learned about card counting during his large amount of free "time", and probably has played some, probably mid-level stakes. Just enough to get noticed and barred a number of times. Maybe he has made some money, maybe not. But he thinks he has discovered some secret thing....card counting...that no body knows about and has a plan to put together a large "slash & burn" type team playing high stakes while they last. Good plan...just about 25 years too late. It's been done to death.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  7. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    And by the way....getting barred is NOT the badge of honor that this guy and many newer type players seem to think it is. It is usually these 'shister' type guys that talk about getting barred here and there and all over the country as this great achievement. As if that validates something like that they are a threat. What it validates is they haven't learned how to win money playing blackjack.

    Card counting is not that hard. There is no great skill involved. But what skill is involved is learning how to win money without getting barred! Winning money and being welcome back to play is the real skill. And even that isn't really all that much skill. It's just about learning tolerance and casino comfort levels. But anybody telling you that they are so good they have been barred here or there or received the very common "you are too good for us...no more blackjack", hasn't learned how to win money. They have learned how to get barred. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  8. RS

    RS Member

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    That's "Michael Morgenstern - Blackjack Professional". He is completely retarded. He posts videos of himself playing BJ at the table, while saying shit like, "The count's +4, you should bet more" or something. And he's sitting there betting $10 or $20 a hand. In the small pieces of his videos I've seen, one he is "teaching" how to count cards (shortly after saying, "Going to skip basic strategy for now"), and he gets the count wrong when playing a sample hand. He may be a card counter, but likely the worst one to ever live.


    There's something seriously wrong with the dude, which is why I think he actually may have burnt up $10k in cash (I'm not saying it's very likely it happened, just that I think it's more likely than what Axel or KJ or others think).


    I don't think he's necessarily trying to scam people (or perhaps he is). I think he's trying to make a big YouTube presence for himself then make money on the back-end by selling hoodies, shirts, cards/shoes/discard racks, and whatever the hell else he's selling. After all, he's not going to get much "recognition" or "fame" by being all boring and explaining basic strategy and how to card counts in depth on his youtube channel....but I think he's much more likely to get a big channel with many viewers if he's acting all crazy 'n shit all the time. If you're selling something, you don't want to target few people and get a high percentage to buy something (ie: 500 people, 80% is 400 buy something). Much better to target a large audience (100,000+) and get 5% to buy something (5,000 people). If he makes it look easy and like any retard can do it, makes it that much easier to sell his shit, because all these people will see this cracked out crazy man who "just won $200k+ in a night".
     
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  9. freddy

    freddy Well-Known Member

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    Now you're calling people "stinky"? I don't know this Wattenberger/Qfit guy and care nothing about him. But.....

    Aren't you the guy who made a long post two days ago that started with you questioning why I care what goes on at WOV? Wasn't it you who asked "why obsess over what goes on there". Aren't you the one who implied that I'm "like some kid with his face pressed up against the window of the candy store" regarding WOV? And aren't you the one who said to move forward? Typical WOV do as I say not as I do thinking. Stinky it is.

    For the record, for the umpteenth time, Qfit did nothing to get you banned. It was Shackleford who stabbed you in the back. Shackleford controls the site. It is Shackleford who doesn't have the guts to admit he was wrong. It is Shackleford who is the disgusting, pitiful little man that banned you out of spite. So you go right ahead and keep using this thread to bash Qfit, call him stinky of whatever you want to do. It's fine with me.

    Just don't be a hypocrite by questioning me about contributing pertinent things on why WOV is dying in a thread called....WOV IS DYING... of all things. Keep bashing Qfit, keep whining about your ban. Keep giving Shackleford the subtle and not so subtle compliments in the hopes that he will see the error of his ways. It's all good. It's all allowed. How many times a week do you drive by his house? Did you send him a Valentine? Need I remind you that he said you are one of two who will never be back? Should I now tell you to move forward like you did me?

    If you don't like this thread you certainly know how to avoid it. Better yet, you can pull a WOV move and petition the admin here to close this thread. WOV....when the going gets tough....they close threads. Maybe it will happen. They're eating away at it little by little. The guy that started the thread is gone. The thread has been taken out of the limelight. Larry has curtailed his participation.

    Me? I'm not moving anywhere but thanks for the advice. I'm right where I want to be for now...always subject to change.
     
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  10. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    You make some fair points freddy. I suppose sometimes I can be a hypocrite.

    I refer to Qfit as "stinky" because it has become general knowledge that his longtime girlfriend left him last year because of hygiene issues. The kind of thing where he goes days on end without bathing. This comes from someone who knows people that know him and his situation. Think of the nerdy 20 or 30 something guy living in his mother's basement spending 20+ hours a day on his computer, who doesn't have time for anything else, including practicing a little hygiene. Only difference is this nerd is 67 and is 'holed up' in his NYC highrise condo.

    Why do I care....I really don't, but he flies off the handle each time I mention it somewhere (and he reads everything I write) so sometimes I feel like getting his goat. To your point, I guess that's the "freddy" in me. :p

    Here is the facts freddy. Qfit banned me (and two other professional players) from his site because I (we) called out a member who was a fraud....was making outrageous ridiculous claims and more importantly misleading other players. Being a math guy Qfit knew this guy's claims were mathematically impossible and misleading.

    To those that aren't knowledgeable or interested in blackjack, it would be like if someone shows up at one of these gambling/AP related sites and talks about how he made a fortune playing roulette using the martingale system. That is just impossible and has been proven so beyond a doubt. So it would be not only the right but the responsibility of some real AP's or Math guys to challenge this bullshit, especially if the younger inexperienced guys were buying it. And in the case of the fraud at Qfit's site the younger inexperienced guys WERE buying his load of crap. He was so complicite in muddying the waters with all these intricate, yet non-sensical formulas that it was easy for people to get caught up.

    So basically Qfit decided he didn't want people challenging other people like that regardless of the circumstances and he banned three well known professional players from his site. THAT is his right to do. His site, he can do what he likes. But that wasn't enough for him, he trolled me to other sites, BJ21.com, WoV among others, and insisted and used whatever influence he had (even threats of legal actions) to get these other site administrators to ban or silence me as well. None of the other site's owners/administrators would go along with him, except....."his friend" Mike Shackleford.

    So Qfits actions go well beyond a site administer censoring someone on their own site. This bully thinks his authority extends beyond his site, through the whole internet. This ego-maniac wants to control what people say and think about him throughout the world. And this is why I place the primary blame to him for this situation.

    Now, Shackleford isn't without blame. As I said, he is the only other site administrator/owner that caved to Qfit's pressure allowed Qfit to extend his ban of someone to other sites. But I view Shackleford's role more of being used himself. People close to him tell me I shouldn't publically state this view if I have any hope of ever returning, but the fact is Norm (Qfit) used Shackleford!. He used his friendship or Shackleford's admiration of him to get what he wanted.....plain an simple. I know it! Norm knows it! Shackleford knows it! And now a year later, with Qfit not having contributed one single thing to WoV since he achieved what he went their to do, everyone else who cares knows it.

    I know that Shackleford recognizes this because he basically told me in private and others that he is friendly with have also said he has admitted it privately. He just is unable to say so publically and make amends for actions he knows he handled wrongly. Apparently, and this will surprise no one here, he is a REALLY insecure man, who cares way to much what others think of him. He thinks admitting he was wrong and making amends would somehow diminish his statue among his little cult following. Personally, I think he would gain new respect from people, but I am not here to address his insecurities. It is what it is: He is insecure and this makes him unable to fix what he knows is wrong.

    So yes, I assign blame to Shackleford, but he was just a pawn. Norm is the mastermind, who set out to silence someone throughout the internet. Shackleford was just a weak, insecure little man that allowed himself to be used in this manner. I don't see the same level of evil in Shackleford.....just weakness and insecurity. And it is not really my place to be angry about him having these flaws. Disappointed that he isn't the man I though he was...yes. But I can't be angry about his insecurity issues. That would be like being angry at someone because they are afraid of lightning. That's not my place.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  11. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    Oh and I did forget one new detail. After all that I wrote, hard to believe I left something out. :rolleyes: But it's kind of important.....the update.

    The fraud guy, who I will call "fraud-3", which is what this all began about way back on Norm's site, long before Shackleford even became involved, has now been thoroughly exposed as a fraud, or at minimum extreme exaggeration of his claims for the purpose of misleading others, by another member of Norm's site, reknowned blackjack expect and author, Don Schelsinger. Don succeeded in exposing this fraud just as us three different professional players tried to do, a year earlier.

    At first Fraud-3 claimed that Don, a blackjack and math expert, just couldn't understand the complexity of what Fraud-3 was doing. Don so thoroughly debunked and exposed Fraud-3, that Fraud-3 eventually changed his story to that he was never even talking about blackjack, but talking about a blackjack variant, spanish21, which was clearly not true.

    Anyone thinking my description is biased, can confirm with one of the members of multiple sites. On this site, one such guy is RS.

    So it's now sort of a case of the "war" continues, even though the cause of the war is now irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  12. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok, a little update. I just received an email from Norm emphatically denying this paragraph. Since I really don't know, I give him the benefit of the doubt. As I said, I do not care about his bathing hygienic habits. I am not dating him! lol. I repeat these things said by others because it bothers him. And he has earned that from me, by his treatment of me.

    Norm also states that his longtime girlfriend fiancé of many years, are in fact still together. Good for you Norm. Although at 67/68 years of age, what the hell are you waiting for? :eek:
     
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  13. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Well-Known Member

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    There's still time. :eek:
    -----------------------------------------------------
    Just to give you something to think about. If that stuff about him being stinky and his girlfriend leaving him because of that is just some unfounded rumor, why did you help spread it?

    Even if it were true, it doesn't/didn't help your case anyways. If anything, it takes away from the facts. It is just mudslinging. IMO, it was all the mud slinging that made this entire episode go way to far.
     
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  14. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    "Doesn't help my case"? What case would that be Axelwolf? What case am I making and how is it going for me? All I get from people like you and some of the members at WoV, including some of the mods, is "Yeah you got a bad deal" or "you were treated unfairly". When I was communicating with Wizard and "making my case", even he told me he handled the situation poorly. So what has all that gotten me? It's a year later....a fucking year later...and I am still banned because a person who does not participate at that site (Wov), nor ever intended to, wanted me silenced because I had a negative opinion of his and his site. THAT is my case! But there is no where to make my case.

    Oh, I am the bad guy because I am mudslinging. Here are the facts that maybe you are not familiar with Axelwolf.

    1.) I was banned from Norm's site because myself and two other professional players challenge a member who was making fraudulent and misleading statements. On almost every AP or gambling site there has to be some lee-way for the legitimate professional players to speak up when someone is making fantastical, mathematically impossible claims. You, Axelwolf do so on WoV all the time, and rightfully so. You can't allow "posers" to post non-sensical bullcrap that is just mathematically not possible and subsequently misleading and even damaging to other members. I'm not talking about an opinion. I am talking about someone intentionally posting fantastical claims that are impossible. (and very importantly, now 18 months later, me and the other two professional players have been proven 100% correct, when widely respected, Blackjack expert and author Don Schlesinger recently stated a similar conclusion)

    2.) so that was my "sin" at Norm's BJ site. Ok...his site....he has the right to ban who he likes. BUT he does not have the right to troll me to other sites like WoV, BJ21 and others and try to use his influence to get other administrators/owners to extend that ban of me. And that is exactly what he attempted and in the case of Mike Shackleford and WoV succeeded in doing so. The other site owners/administrators would have no part of it. Only Shacklefrd allowed himself to be used and manipulated by Qfit in this manner.

    So this #2 alone is reason for me to have some unpleasant things to say about him and be unbound by any sort of 'no mudslinging clause'. But there is actually much more.

    3.) As I said earlier, Norm had the right to ban me from his site....which he did. But that wasn't good enough for him. He has continued to attack me on his site and allow other members to attack me for more than a year now. I don't know how many times in the last year Norm has reference how sick, insane, or mentally ill I am. For the record, this is Norm's typical M.O. It isn't reserved for me. He has been in feuds and war of words with dozens (that's plural) of members of the blackjack AP community, on not just his site, but numerous sites throughout the community. And that just during my decade or so of being involved in the community. Some were pretty big names in the blackjack community. Others just really sound BJ players and AP's and contributors. But as soon as they get into it with Norm, according to Norm they all have mental issues and are racists and anti-Semitic. And anyone who has ever posted on either of two sites, this site and another zenzoneforum, are immediately labeled as hate mongers, because Norm has declared these two sites "Hate sites". So even you, Mr Axelwolf without ever having conversed with Norm, are anti-Semitic according to Norm, simply by participating here.

    So for more than a year, including in the past two days, Norm has periodically, publically attackd me on his site, calling me mentally ill and an anti-Semitic. And he allows other members of his forum to attack me, calling me worse. Personally, I think attacking someone on a site that they are banned from, meaning unable to respond is cowardly. It is typical bully mentality. It's just low. But that is very typical Qfit.

    Now these things that he says publically are just the tip of the iceberg. As you know about me, Axelwolf, I try to keep an avenue of communication open, so occasionally during this last year, I have emailed Norm to privately discuss some thing. The last time I did so, I guess sometime last summer, Norm's response was to file a complaint with Yahoo mail, telling them that he did not want this person (me) contacting him. So imagine my surprise yesterday when I received an email from Norm. No I didn't respond by filing a complaint with anyone. I took the opportunity to try to re-open an avenue of communication. I made some points about things, but was not nasty or engaged in any name-calling.

    What I received back from Norm was a typical hate filled Norm response telling me:

    "that I was the most dishonest person he has run across in 40 years".
    "that he had NEVER done anything to me". confused.png
    "that he doesn't censor opinions". eek.png
    "that I am paranoid".
    "that I am mentally ill".
    "that I am insane".
    "that I am sick beyond belief".
    "that my mental instability makes me look like a terrorist".

    He then put his completely dishonest spin on several things like how I am supporting this felon, Michael Morgenstern and of course, played the anti-Semitic, card. Basically the typical Norm stuff. It just makes you feel stupid and foolish for thinking there was any hope the guy can be a human being. :(

    So, NO, I don't feel bad for repeating the rumor concerning his hygienic habits. I didn't make it up....I just repeated it. And by the way, it isn't just a random rumor told to me by some unknown person. The person who posted it on another site, is a an AP friend that I have communicated with privately and publicly since I joined the community about 10 years ago. And while I have not verified the statements, I can tell you that I trust this person, who has never steered me wrong in all my communications with him, much more that Qfit, who I have personally witness tell many, many lies, exaggerations, and partial untruths not only about myself, but many other people.

    So If I had to bet on the story.....I would be betting against "pigpen". :D
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  15. RS

    RS Member

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    The mudslinging doesn't help your case. If anything, it detracts from it. It makes you look like a Larry/freddy type of a person. Even if/when you do say something that is true, it's all lost because you'd have lost your credibility from the mudslinging nonsense. It's like the boy who cried wolf.


    For example, if I'm driving through Oklahoma and a black cop pulls me over and takes all my money....if I'm trying to make my case, I'm not gonna call him a "stupid f***ing monkey n***er".....as for one, that does not help my case and for two, I lose credibility when I say that. Everything else after that falls on deaf ears, even if I'm right going forward.

    No one's saying you're the bad guy. Just that you didn't handle the situation the best way you could have. And at this point, if you want to keep with the mudslinging, you can, but it's all falling on deaf ears.
     
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  16. RS

    RS Member

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    It's odd, though. You think it's OK to talk shit about Norm, but as soon as he does it, it's a problem.

    You say he has poor hygiene, he says you're mentally ill. If you go to war, prepare to get attacked.
     
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  17. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I am NOT making a case RS. There is nowhere for me to make it too. So yes, I have become a Larry/freddy type person. That is what I have been reduced to. I am a professional blackjack AP, who has made just shy of a million dollars and I am not allowed to share my experiences throughout the community. I am bitter about that.

    YOU know me from online. I was one of the top posters at Norm's site. I made the very first post. I tried really hard to share my experiences so that others could benefit, just as I benefit from others, including you. I had the second highest 'helpful' rating (and I hated that feature). And now I am pretty much banned from the community. The reason? Because I stood up and challenged a guy that we all knew was a fraud and full of shit. Remember.....500% increase in win rate? No variance? Wins like clockwork?

    I guess you have chosen to forget what this is really all about. I mean for a while you were a big supporter. After I got banned, I remember you posting in my defense and quoting these very ridiculous claims....."500% gains", "no variance". But it doesn't effect you so you have moved on. I get that. It's disappointing because I thought you were a friend.

    Actually, I know exactly when you stopped defending me. It is when I posted negative stuff about Wizard. But that's not what we are talking about. These are two separate incidents.....you have just rolled them into one and decided since I posted negatively about Wizard, who you are friends with, that I am not worth defending on the initial issue.

    I am specifically talking about 2 parts to the Norm issue. 1) My banning at Norm's site, and 2) Norm coming to WoV for the sole purpose of using his influence to get Mike to silence or ban me. Norm hadn't participated at WoV in over 5 year and had no interest in participating. I mean where's he been? What has he contributed since? His sole purpose was to get a regular member banned because I had a negative opinion of him, his site and those that he allowed to take control and mislead people.

    This is what I am talking about. Now tell me anything I just said isn't true.

    The Wizard issue is a separate issue and if you want to take issue with how I handled that and some of the things I said about Mike, you can. I have acknowledged that at times I handled it badly, just as Mike did. I even acknowledged that directly to Mike this past Christmas.

    So keep the two incidents separate. What I said about Mike, has no bearing on the FACT that Norm banned me for calling out a guy that we all knew was full of shit and then trolled me to a second site and used his influence to extend that ban. And if you remember it wasn't just me. There was bjarg and 21forme who were both suspended and left Norm's site for quite a while. Also remember that in recent months, all 3 of us have been....I would say proven correct, but we were always correct, so I'll say "validated", when Don Schlesinger came to the same conclusion that all these claims were non-sense. At that point, 18 months after the fact, the guy completely changed his story, saying he was never talking about blackjack, but spanish21 (which also is completely untrue).

    I am not telling you anything you don't know. All I am asking you to do is separate the two incidents. You can be critical of the way I handled some things with Mike, and still defend me on what transpired leading to that.

    I was banned from one site for saying that a guy was full of shit and misleading people....and it turns out I was right.
    I was banned from a second site because the owner of the first site, who was and is not a regular member of that second site, used his influence to get me banned. And having done so, hasn't contributed one damn thing since.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  18. RS

    RS Member

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    I was simply talking about the mudslinging against Norm. It does appear you're trying to make a case, because you're still talking about it. If you want to share the truth and let others know what happened, the best way (IMO) is by not posting something that would cause you to lose some credibility. No one (IMP) who hasn't actually experienced what transpired would believe you because of the "stinky Norm" or whatever else that you're saying.


    I still think you were wrongfully banned from both BJTF and WOV.

    I did not stop defending you because you started saying things about Mike. I stopped defending you when you cherry picked messages between you and Mike and conveniently left out the F U quote that was something like "I'm X years younger than you and for the rest of my life which will be your whole life I will keep posting on forums telling people you're this, that, and the other." (Not verbatim.)

    Before that quote, you asked Mike to unban you or something (I don't remember exactly) and he said he'd let Zuga(?) decide. Then he told you he's never going to unban you and he'll tell Zuga not to unban you either. You made it seem like he went from trying to help you to him telling you to F off.....but you conveniently left out the PM you sent him...making it seem like you were completely innocent and should have been unbanned even though you threw it right back into his face.


    No, you shouldn't have been banned the first time around on WOV. But after what you said to Mike, I'm not going to defend you and say you should be let back on WOV (whether you want to be back or not).



    I'm not mixing the incidents together. I think you were wrongfully banned first. But your actions after the fact certainly haven't helped your case. I think you had a pretty good case of coming back onto WOV after the heat settled, by messaging him respectfully/nicely (not the best adverbs but something like that). Mike was in a tough spot between you and Norm (not a gay joke :) ) and I think ultimately he would have unbanned you, had you kept your calm and not posted a bunch of salty messages on here, to him, or wherever else (ZZF maybe?) that you post.

    On top of that, this also begs the question -- what transpired between you and Norm privately? That's a rhetorical question. You were saying things about Mike but left out that "F U" message you sent to him....and I'd have to assume, something similar to that happened between you and Norm. It's a lot easier to ban someone when they're sending you threatening (non-violent) messages to you. So the ban on BJTF may not all be about what you posted on the forum, but what you said privately to Norm. And perhaps there are other things you said to Mike and Norm leading up to your bans at WOV or BJTF respectively.


    I'm not sure how interested you are in being back on BJTF or WOV (it seems like you don't want to). And I'm not entirely sure what your goal is of posting about them here.
     
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  19. RS

    RS Member

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    And I'm certainly not going to defend you when you say things like (not verbatim), "I'll celebrate the day Norm dies." Whether or not I agree with you or what I may disagree with Norm about, I'm not going to be by someone's side who says that, as that's way over the top.
     
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  20. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Well-Known Member

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    It is to early to read all of that. But fuck, I didn't mean to rile you up. It was just a suggestion. I was not trying to call you out or get on your case.
    I certainly didn't say you were a bad guy or anything like that for calling him names. And im not being a hypocrite or anything. I'm sure I have and do call people worst names than stinky. But im not in the situation you are in. If I was having a feud(or whatever we are calling it nowadays) with someone and the situation got to the level this has. I think I would try to stick with the more serious facts.
    In this situation, I think sticking to the facts are vital no matter what your goal is(unless your goal is to make people think Norm is stinky). That's all im saying.

    What I dont understand: If there are so many people that have or had issues with Norm, and he is doing all this crazy stuff that people are saying, like threatening legal action, backing up BS on his forum etc etc. Why is everyone taking it? Is he outsmarting everyone? Does he have more money than God and uses it to do his bidding? Dose he have superpowers? Friends in the Mafia? Dirt on everyone? Perhaps you should all work together and solve this problem.

    Most everyone was on your side at WOV and here(and other forums?) at the beginning. What do you think happen to make that change? Did Norm get to everyone? Most people barley knew who the guy was before all this.

    Cheer up, it looks like you dont have to deal with Larry here anymore. I think he could see the writing on the wall. He got out while before the inevitable. Now he can say it was because he left...lol.

    Perhaps he finally got caught fondling someones balls and made it seem as if he left for other reasons.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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