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Blackjack Current feud with Qfit (Norman Wattenberger)

Discussion in 'Personal Feuds' started by KewlJ, Feb 13, 2017.

This is a Designated Unrestricted Area and is moderated more lightly and may therefore contain more offensive language. Reader beware.
  1. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    This is just completely untrue. I never spoke privately to either Mike or Norm prior to either banning. In the case of Mike, the first time I spoke privately to him was after he banned me because I had to create an account at Diversity Tomorrow just to have an avenue to communicate with him.

    With Norm it's a little fuzzier because I was not actually publicly banned. It's not like I posted something and he said, that's against the rules, you are banned. What happened at BJTF was that after Bjarg and 21forme were suspended and left, I remained and tried to continue to participate. But the little gang that dominates and you know to whom I am speaking was allowed to attack me and did so with just about everything I said. It didn't matter if I said the sky was blue, they would argue with and attack me. And twice when I got frustrated and would attack back, I was suspended.

    After the second suspension at BJTF, I decide to stop participating and stopped posting. But the little gang kept attacking and talking about me, including Norm. Several months later, someone (I don't remember which one) said something that was completely distorted and I wanted to correct the record, so I tried to log on, only to get an automated message that I was permanently banned. In typical Norm fashion, even that he did sneakily.

    What has become known as the F U message is very much taken out of context in my opinion. As you know, I often say, I am not a great communicator and often word things in a way that fails to get my point across or people think I mean something different. I honestly believe that is the case with the F U Message. I didn't leave that particular message out because it made me look bad like you, Alexwolf and some other believe. I left it out because it was irrelevant.....at least as I meant it. I will yet again try to explain the context.

    Mike and I were discussing a possible return. He admitted that he handed the entire situation badly but said he couldn't let me return because Norm would be on his case and hound him (not verbatim, this is without going back and looking up the exact words). I believe he used the phrase "consequences from Norm". So I tried to make the point that there were going to be consequences from me as well. I wasn't going to let it go either. I would bring it up every chance I got (just as I continue to do). The reference about being 20 years younger so the consequences from me was almost meant humorously...like "and my consequences will last longer". But that seems to be the part that offended him the most. Perhaps if his sites and PM's had emoticons, where I could have put a big smile to show humor/sarcasm, that meaning wouldn't have been mis-interpreted as the threat that it somehow seems to be.

    Just as you say I am hypocritical by mudslinging at Norm and not expecting him to do so back, how is it that for over a year now he has repeatedly, attacked me, saying I am "mentally ill", "mentally sick", "so mentally unbalanced that I appear like a terrorist", but I run with a rumor that someone else started and nickname him "stinky", and I am the bad guy. I am the one that has crossed the line.

    One time, I said "I would celebrate the day he died", and I even posted later on ZZ that I regretted saying that. What I have said a couple times is that will be a good day for the blackjack community because his site will cease to exist. I don't regret that at all. I believe his site, now dominated by a core little group of posters, many of whom intentionally mislead, is damaging to the community and especially the younger guys starting out. So if that site ends, I view that as a good thing.

    Well I thank you for saying I shouldn't have been banned. I disagree with your final statement because again, I think you are mixing the two issues together. Had I not been wrongfully banned from WOV, there would never have been any of this back and forth and I would not have said some things to Mike in the heat of the moment that I later regretted.

    This irks me a little bit. It is WoV policy, posted somewhere because I read it not long ago, "that what someone says on other sites has no relevance or consequences nor is even considered as far as WoV. YET, if you go back and read Mike's statement when he banned me, it reads "while normally we don't consider things said on other sites..... (he then goes on to ban me for something said on another site). o_O And now you and others are again telling me that things that I have said on other sites are being held against me, contrary to this policy.

    Why is this long standing WoV policy not being applied equally to me? And really it is a good policy. Site administrators like Mike and Norm only have authority over their own sites. While I disagree with Norm's ban of me on his site, he does indeed have that right. One of my big complaints is that he attempted to and succeeded in extending that ban, basically deciding what I was allowed and not allowed to say on other sites. And now you are telling me Mike is doing the same thing....deciding what I am allowed to say on other sites. :eek: Whats next? Are these guys going to tell their members where they can worship and who they can associate with?

    I would never go back to BJTF. I have no respect for Norm, the site, and most of the membership. There are only a very small handful of people their that are legitimate AP's and they don't even participate often because the site is dominated by the core group with an agenda. I have zero respect for Norm personally or as part of the blackjack community. His feud with me is NOT an isolated incident. This is a guy who has been involved with feuds and war of words with dozens of people, throughout the community over the years.

    Let me throw some names at you: Standford Wong (who feuds with Standford Wong? the guy is completely non confrontational and easy going), Arnold Snyder, Didn't Norm and James feud at one point (can't remember), You were at BJinfo right? Automatic Monkey, Zengrifter, Creeping Panther....many, many more. Machinist from the old BJinfo...remember him? Sagefrog from Blackjack info. Really easy going guy. Funny how when bjinfo shut down, he and others would not migrate to Norms site, but 5 year later when BJinfo opens up. Sagefrog is right there posting. He hasn't left the community....just rejected Norm's site. What about Shadroch. Great poster. The kind of guy I learned so much from early on because he shared his experiences in detail. He posted here briefly and is at WoV under a new handle, but he only participated very briefly at Norm's site. His quote here was "that he considered Norm a friend, but as a site administrator he was not impressed".

    While you may not like some of these people and there are some controversial names (handles) there, the point is they can't all be wrong. Norm just systematically eliminated anyone he has had differences throughout the years. That's not a guy who has the communities interest at heart.

    And finally, last but not least, as a matter of fact last but best....21forme. I can think of no one in this community who has taught me more. A professional in every sense of the word. A respectful and easy-going guy. Feud might not be the right word in all these cases, but all people that Norm has had issues with. All I can say is any administrator that would suspend a 21forme, for simply telling the truth and attempting to protect the members from a fraud, shoveling BS, is not someone who has the communities interest at heart.

    But I feel differently about Mike. I obviously still strongly disapprove and am disappointed in the way Mike handled things. But there was no evil intentions. No petty power play. He just got caught up in something he was not prepared for and handled it very poorly. Because I still have respect for Mike, as an AP and as a person, I would be willing to at least consider a return to WoV under the right circumstances. But I am not going to go groveling and I am not going to make nice with Norm and I am not going to accept restrictions on what I can and can't say outside of WoV and so far that's the kind of things I have been hearing.
     
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  2. jbs

    jbs Well-Known Member

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    Who gives a fuck about t3 & flash. Anyone in their right mind can see these shitholes never leave the basement let alone ever enter a casino.
     
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  3. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I use the word feud, but I am not in a feud with Norm. I have zero respect for him and think he is an evil person through to his core. I want nothing to do with him and am not trying to mend fences with him in any way. He has attacked me for a solid year, since he banned me, so I have resorted to responding in the same juvenile way. :rolleyes: And I agree with you...."stinky" and my now preferred "pigpen" are pretty mild as far as attacks go. And this rumor about his hygiene wasn't even my doing. That was someone else. I just ran with it.

    No, he didn't get to everyone. As a matter of fact, he didn't get to (or influence or convince) most of the people at WoV. I know this because of the pushback towards Norm, by the membership including yourself and RS. And I do appreciate that from all. I also know this because other mods have expressed that they did not agree with Mike. BUT, Norm did "get to" (influence and convince) the one single person he needed to. And that's all that really mattered. There was no poll. Mike didn't seek and as a matter of fact...rejected input from anyone.

    I think two things happened. One I discussed in the previous response to RS. People stopped supporting me when I had negative things to say about Mike. And as I said, I think people, including Mike took what is now referred to as the F U comment, much harsher and I a different manner, than I intended it to be.

    The second thing is something you sort of unknowingly highlighted shortly after I was banned. In a thread at WoV, someone made a comment about me and you responded "kewl Who? Out of sight out of mind" I know you were being funny, but it goes to the point that there is a short attention span on these things.

    No one supported me more at WoV than RonC. he was angry that Norm had been allowed to come to WoV and get rid of a regular member. he voiced that over and over for quite a while. he even started up the discussions a couple times when it died down. But then one day, when someone else brought it up, I remember RonC saying something like "well it's over and done with". Norm won the day Mike sided with him and banned me. It just took a little while for people that saw that as wrong to get over it and move on to the next thing. :(
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  4. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I wish this were true. I would feel ALOT better if this were true. But I have witnessed them very negatively influence newer players. EVERY damn day they continue or start new discussions where they are shoveling their bullshit, complete with pages and pages of erroneous and irrelevant data. And the "math expert" that owns the site says nothing. :eek:


    I tend to think you are correct about t3. For years he presented himself as a small time, low stakes, recreational player before he transformed his persona to the world's greatest blackjack player, using complex techniques that no one else can possible comprehend. I sill wonder how much of his play occurs at casinos and how much is simulations and alternative reality.

    Flash, has years of actual casino play. Blackjack, roulette, craps, horseracing, sportsbetting. He describes himself as a 20 year professional AP. o_O There's an awful lot of negative expectation play there to qualify as an AP. :rolleyes:

    It isn't my place to decide who qualifies as what by definition. But I wonder if someone retired from a professional career, drawing a pension, and now social security, who's wife has a very strong income contributing to the household, really qualifies as "a professional AP"? (where's Larry when you need him? ;))

    I see a retired guy with a pension and social security and a working wife contributing to the household, more as a retired guy playing recreationally, maybe showing a profit, who knows....after all the negative expectation gambling this guy does and has done throughout his lifetime. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  5. Mickey Crimm

    Mickey Crimm Well-Known Member

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    Hey, Norm! Yeah, you Wattenberger. If you don't take a shower occasionally how do you expect to keep Shackleford's nose up your ass.
     
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  6. RS

    RS Member

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    I didn't say you did. My point is, given your dishonesty since the bannings, it's sort of hard to trust what you say about that stuff.



    I don't think there's a single damn person that believes you said those things to Mike and expected something different to happen....and that you did not intentionally leave that part of the PMs out. I'm not going to go hunting down posts, but you said something like this (not verbatim) -- Mike sent me a message saying he'd talk to Zuga or something and let Zuga decide if I should return....then a few minutes later I got a PM from Mike saying you're never coming back and he was mad and nasty and I have noooo idea whyyyyy!!!!


    No, you knew exactly what happened and why he told you to get lost.




    But you continue to post about him. Whether you're right or wrong....you're STILL POSTING ABOUT HIM.

    I don't read every post on BJTF (for one, most threads are stupid, and for two, I'm not a subscribed person thing), but it seems over the past several months since your banning, Norm has let up quite a bit and hasn't talked about you, for the most part. Other than what he posted a few days (weeks?) ago about you / Michael Morgenstern / etc., there hasn't been continuous posts from Norm aimed at you. I recall a few times he actually put the trap on a few threads that started going into the KJ zone and talking about you.

    I agree.


    I think the two issues sort of have to be "mixed" together to get the full context. It's sort of like 'evidence' that your actions in all this stuff haven't been as kosher as you originally claim.



    If I remember correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), it had something to do with you posting a PM that was between you and Mike. I sort of remember the rule or reference you're talking about, but I think it has more to do with stuff like, if someone on GF or BJTF were to say, "Mike is a ******* and Mission is a ****, and they do this and that and corrupt and....etc etc...." then you wouldn't get banned for it. But, given that you (IIRC) posted PMs that Mike had sent you, that's certainly quite a bit different. The intent of the rule was not to allow someone to post PMs on a different forum.



    I believe I started getting into CC shortly before BJinfo forum shut down.

    I think there's a bit of miscommunication here -- I certainly don't think you should have been banned from BJTF.[/quote]
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
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  7. 21forme

    21forme New Member

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    Kewlj - I just registered on this forum to respond, as someone notified me about this thread which contains an error. Until now, I was unaware of the existence of this forum, and am making this one post to correct what you said. I do not plan to become active here. At this point, I'm forummed out :)

    First, thanks for your kind words.

    Second, I was never banned from BJTF. I left on my own volition for a few months, returned, then left again after seeing the same old nonsense. If I wish to return again, I could. However, I haven't been back in there in many months and do not care to return to that cesspool of misinformation, endless supply of "which count is best" threads, and sounding board for two losers who have nothing better to do than than try to make more posts than the other one.

    That's all I have. You know how to contact me, if you wish to. Good cards!
     
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  8. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    21forme, If I stated you were banned at BJTF, I certainly was in error in doing so. I thought I stated clearly "suspended" and then left on your own. (2 references below) Perhaps there is a different reference that I am missing.

    I was banned. You and bjarg were suspended (for 3 days I believe), which led to you choosing to leave. But regardless, it's almost a technicality in my mind. I sort of group it all together in that you, Bjarg, myself and others legitimate blackjack professional AP's, were driven away for standing up and saying "hey this guy is a fraud and talking complete bullshit". Not a difference in opinion, but complete, mathematically impossible, nonsense, intending to mislead other members and players. And being that the person who runs the site is a math guy, it is inexplicable to me that he not only allowed these ridiculous, impossible claims, but 'shut down' those of us that dared stand up and say that the emperor was f-ing naked! As professional blackjack AP's we had not only a right....but a responsibility to call this person out.

     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  9. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    Update: I just went back and re-read (and refreshed my memory) and 21forme was not suspended. I apparently remembered that incorrectly. My apologies. Bjarg was suspended for 7 days. 21forme, just got fed up and announced his departure. I stayed and was eventually suspended and then sometime after I decided to stop participating, I was banned.

    But as I stated, in my mind a technicality. My point is that several professional AP's were driven away for standing up to a fraud, making preposterous, mathematically impossible and intentionally misleading claims. And it was more than just the three of us that went rather publicly, one way or another. Several other known, professional types, left more quietly at that time. And for the record: All of us have since been proven to have been correct.

    In my mind, it doesn't make all that much difference as numerous professional players were driven away at that point, but for the record, I stand corrected.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  10. beachedwhale

    beachedwhale Active Member

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    Your rants are getting old, we know all of this because you've told us dozens of times. In the absence of anything new I doubt anyone cares. Frankly I don't believe that QFIT would bother with you given your constant self-inflicted wounds. Why would he need to? How about you prove that he emails abuse to you? Take a screen shot of his emails and post them. Until you do that I am happy to park you in the full of shit camp.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
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  11. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I'll get a email from Qfit threatening to sue me, but whatever.

    upload_2017-5-29_22-27-57.png

    NLWpWWm_MEcqiBM-Lijw8IgmqmKmBBUsrpAS3ScN3_9ACHQR6FDwrxP0kCmuMgFO25CijxR_zvaZUl10Gvyh0Le8OmtjFmW6.png

    Many more where these came from. o_O
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
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  12. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure why the first one minimized upon posting (I am kind of technically challenged). here it is again.

    VzOHT00AODD4oZ7ow4SVuUP4pg8u7NnBxKOVgew8GkZg_zKPhO3ZKzNvamBlLieWZdMoaqZaz-YsD4-FUHPJzeF1QqVG4Ja4.png
     
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  13. MrV

    MrV Well-Known Member

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    Whoa, he must have a crystal ball or something.

    But instead of a mall, you'd want to pesonalize it, and would probably opt for WoVCon next year.

    Be sure to clean your weapon and check your ammo.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2017
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  14. beachedwhale

    beachedwhale Active Member

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    Interesting.

    How about posting the ones where you claim he gloated about getting you banned from WoV? Where he shared his true intentions on enaging on the site. And please, post the actual email, not something that has been forwarded. Not accusing you of this but a forwarded email could be edited. Let's be absolutely left in no doubt.
     

  15. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    Here ya go BWC, you want insight into Norm's character. On Norm's site today, he yet again attacked me, numerous time. Nothing new there. It is so sleazy, so low, to attack someone that can't respond. And for those that say I attack both Mike and Norm, when they aren't a member here, hey they are free to join and respond (as far as I know). But attacking someone that can't respond is a really small person thing. It's flat out cowardice.

    And in this case the attack 100% false. Norm posted multiple times that I harassed and threatened Mike Shackleford to the point that Mike contacted the police and filed a report. If this sounds familiar, it is because it was another member here who half-heartedly threatened Shackleford one night (just after last call...lol). The poster apologized the next morning, but Shackleford felt threatened, or so he claims and contacted the police and filed some sort of report. Had absolutely nothing to do with me.

    Well maybe an honest mistake, you say. Well I did email Norm and informed him of the correct facts, yet still his posts remain. Norm will say I posted things about him that aren't true, like his hygienic habit (or lack there of). First I only passed on rumors, so at worst I am a gossip. But regardless there is a pretty big difference in falsely posting someone stalked and threatened another party to the point that the threatened party contacted the police. That kind of thing is actual ballpark liable suit type thing, if one were inclined, which I am not. I don't go running and screaming to the authorities, filing claims and such like Norm does. But it is definitely a new low for Norm.
     
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  16. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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  17. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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  18. RS

    RS Member

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    Are you kidding? Seriously. I've already said multiple times you got screwed on the deal and I don't think Mike handled it all properly. Every time you post something and I respond, do you want me to say, "You got screwed and Mike didn't handle it properly"? What is it you want us to say or what part of this are we missing or not understanding?

    All of that has already been covered, many times over. I don't think anyone disagrees you got a raw deal on your initial ban on WOV. Do I or others need to bring that up every time you say something about WOV? I'm not so worried about that. It's in the past, and you aren't still being wronged unfairly.

    I'm seriously not trying to be insulting when I say you should contact a psychiatrist....although I haven't phrased it in the most endearing terms, I do mean it in a sincere way....like recommending a friend to rehab for alcohol/drug abuse. At least give them a call or have one session and see where it goes. All this stuff about WOV/Mike and BJTF/Norm is not normal or healthy, as far as I can tell.

    The psychopath/sociopath comment was out of line and I apologize for that.

    I'd say the same thing to Larry, LovePotion, Freddy, BWC, and some of the others here (about seeing a psychiatrist).....but I don't really care for them and I'm fine if they ruin the rest of their lives obsessing over some shit that, at the end of the day, really doesn't matter one bit (at least to them). I don't think you want to continue down that path and I don't want you to turn into a full-blown LarryS/Freddy/etc.
     
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  19. AxelWolf

    AxelWolf Well-Known Member

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    Lets go way back. Who started this entire ordeal in the first place? You can try to pin it on Norm sure. Correct me if I'm wrong, isn't it a fact that you were doing something on another man's forum that he didn't like? Were you asked to stop? Were you "badmouthing" him or his site after that? Yes, I get it you were trying to save all the young AP guys time/money and set everyone straight about some "outrageous" claims.

    Was there not another BJ forum you had problems at as well? What's going on, why have you been reduced to posting on GF? Do you think it's your god given right to post on these forums you don't own, run or control?


    Many people have called you a drama queen(I'm not just talking about WOV supporters or the guys on here).

    Is it posable that Norm included your prior history and problems to Mike from the start? Perhaps he himself mentioned you were a drama queen and eventually you would make waves. It seems as if you have a very hard time letting stuff go. Perhaps Mike knew you would never let the Norm stuff go and that was part of his decision at the time. If you consider all the thing you have done and said after it might leave an impression to many that you are not the kind of person one would want on their site in the first place. It makes it look like Mike made the right choice after all.

    Before you get mad at me for this, I am not saying it was the right choice or you are not the kind of person someone would want on their site. I'm just telling you what people might be thinking.
     
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  20. KewlJ

    KewlJ Well-Known Member

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    No to most of that.

    "bad mouthing". The "badmouthing" that started this whole ordeal was strictly of a professional nature, nothing personal and no personal attacks. I objected and still do object to a couple members on Norm's site that are full of shit and intentionally misleading players.

    The one guy, who at the time had been a recreational $5 blackjack player for years, by his own admission. There is nothing wrong with that. But then he transformed himself over night into a professional player, playing this outrageously complex count that he thinks he invented. Actually a reincarnation of other people's work from the 80's. Now here is the kicker: His claims are that his count achieves a 500% increase in results over traditional blackjack. He claims he is playing to a 5% edge. That is impossible! That is not an opinion....that is fact. IMPOSSIBLE! 5% advantage is the kind of advantage you can get from hole-carding, not card counting. Card counting you are talking the 1% range. Perfect card counting play and betting done by a computer can not come anywhere close to 5%.

    Now why was this important? Normally I don't care when someone talks bullshit. But you could see the newer players literally taking interest and wanting to follow along. Why wouldn't they? 5% sound a hell of a lot better than 1%.

    So those of us that tried to challenge these completely false claims where banned or driven away. Eventually (2 years later) Don Schlesinger, author of Blackjack attack books, was allowed and able to challenge these results. And you know what...the fraud guy then changed his story saying that his thousands of claims (the guy has 12,000 posts) over the previous years were not even about blackjack but instead about a blackjack variant, SP21. That too was proven false.

    So that is the kind of challenges that started this hole ordeal. Not personal shit about Norm or anyone. Just challenging a complete fraud, a snake oil salesman, pushing bullshit claims.

    Norm is the one who took this to a personal level. First on his site, he decided he wanted me gone, but he didn't want to ban me, so he allowed those on his site, who supported this fraud guy to attack me and in a very personal way. Day after day, attack after attack for 6 months. And these attacks turned very personal. No one was ever suspended for attacking me. But as soon as I attacked back, I would be suspended. Finally I had enough and left. Several months after I left (not sure exactly how long), I apparently was banned retroactively

    So even though I was not a member of Norm's site, on other sites when mention of Norm's site, or one of these guys came up, I voiced my opinion that these claims were fraud. I have that right! Norm began trolling me to other sites, that he had not participated on, BJ21, and WoV. He was technically a member of both sites, but not an active participating member. But he returned to both sites, that he had sworn off, to troll me and attack my opinions. And he had that right. But then he started lying and making his attacks personal. He is the one who took it to a personal level. I was just attacking the credibility of a guy that was pushing bullshit claims and intentionally misleading people.

    The only personal thing I initially said concerning Norm, is that I wondered out loud, why he would allow claims that he knew were false and mathematically impossible. I wondered if trafficwise and thus financially it was better for him and his site to do so. And I till wonde that. Why would a math guy allow claims he knows are mathematically impossible?

    The zenzone to which you are referring is a nearly dead forum made up of members of the blackjack community that were banned or driven off by Norm. Some had feud dating back decades. And yes the site is a cellpool, (sound familiar). I never posted any racial or anti-semetic stuff that is a common thing on that site, but I did "run with" some rumors about Norm.....just to piss him off. I mean at this point he had not only driven me from his own site, which he had a right to do, but trolled me to 2 other sites that he was not an active member, engaging in a feud and demanding both adminitrators ban or censor me. Shackleford went along with Norm, BJ21 did not. So yeah by this point, I ran with some rumors just to piss Norm off. (I think he was the only one reading that site...lol).
     
    beachedwhale likes this.

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