Blackjack Current feud with Qfit (Norman Wattenberger)

First, Norm likes to tell the lie that I have been banned from numerous sites, I have seen him use the number 4 or 5.

The truth is I have been banned from 2. Norm's and now WoV at Norm's demanding. At Blackjack info, I was initially banned after the 'deathgate' ordeal (bad decision on my part), but that ban was reversed after a short while and everyone calmed down. So more or less that "ban" was the equivalent of a suspension. That is the only suspension I had at BJinfo in 5 years. At WoV, before Norm showed up to demand my removal, I had exactly 1 suspension (calling evenbob a jackass) in 4 years. At BJ21, zero suspensions or bannings. Norm's site zero suspensions in the first 3 and a half years until this incident.

If you add it all up, prior to this incident and the trolling that followed, I had 3 suspensions in a combined 15+ years of participation at 4 sites. I mean you have probably had as many suspensions as I have had. So this narrative that Norm paints of me a trouble maker suspended at every site, is a complete lie, a complete character assassination on his part.

Not only do I have a very minimum number of issues prior to this, but on almost all sites, I was though pretty highly of by both management and membership. Norm's site even has a "helpful rating" feature that I always hated. At the time I left, I had the second or third highest helpful rating. So this narrative that I am problem member kicked off every site, is just one of Norm's lies and attempts to assassinate the character of someone he doesn't like. LONG history of that with many members of the BJ community.


And one more point from above. "Norm including my prior history and problems to Mike". That would be one thing if Mike didn't know who I was. BUT at that point, I had been a member of WoV for 4 years. Mike knew exactly who I was and there was a clear record of my intent as far as participation. IF after 4 years of participation and contributing positively at WOV, participation that Mike called "one of the most valuable members", why would he be influenced by someone showing up telling him otherwise. Is Mike that stupid? I mean that is like someone showing up at your door and telling you that your girlfriend is a crack addict. You know her and have lived with her for years, so would you believe what YOU KNOW or what someone else with an agenda is telling you?

 

Update to this little incident. Now 24 hours later, and Norm has not removed this blatant lie. He received my email (because he responded) informing him that it wasn't me that Shackleford contacted the police about, but another member. That incident had nothing to do with me.

In addition a member of Norm's site asked why Norm posted that lie, that he knew was a lie. That member happened to be exoter (former member here). It doesn't matter what you think of exoter, what is important is that as a member here, he was aware that the lie Norm wrote was really about someone else. So Norm's response to exoter.....exoter is now suspended at Norm's site.

Props to exoter, who isn't a friend of mine or anything, for demanding the truth. Sad that another member that is both member of this site, and participated at Norm's site today, didn't speak up and demand Norm stop lying. But this 'other' member of both sites, doesn't support me any longer, so I guess it is ok with him when someone states an accusation that he knows is untrue.

In addition, I asked Mike Shackleford (through a 3rd party) to contact Norm to tell him that this lie wasn't true. I don't have confirmation that Mike actually did, but doesn't really matter at this point. Norm clearly knows this is not true. He likely knew it when he posted it, but if for some reason it was an honest mistake and he got mixed up as to who Mike contacted the police about, he surely knows it now, and now more than 24 hours later, has not apologized or corrected this nasty lie. So that is the real Norm Wattenberger.

 

Damn, you sure like twisting shit around. Norm didn't ban Exoter because Exoter asked or prodded about a lie Norm told. Seemed to me like Exoter was suspended because he couldn't stop being disruptive. He reminds me of ZenKing, they each think they're the world's best at what they do and they know all the answers.....yet ZK can't figure out how to apply for an apartment. Exotard can't figure out why 3:1 on a 1/3 proposition isn't break-even then thinks people are assholes because we're all telling him he's wrong.

 

You are being naïve, RS. Exoter has been disruptive for years. It is no coincidence that he was suspended an hour after he posted "You said it was KJ that threatened Shack, it was not".

Can I ask why you didn't speak up? I am well aware you no longer support me, nor care for me, but as a member here and at WoV, where the incident was discussed, you most certainly knew it was not me that Shack called the police on. Because you don't care for me, it's OK, to tell THAT kind of lie to smear someone? That kind of intentional lie, goes to a new "low".

 

I can very much figure out a great many things, but using a typo against me and out of context, when clearly answering Moses' question that he'd require a 3:1 payout from insurance to beat all three scenarios seems a bit brash.

That being said, what do you know Stoner? Its not as if you're any kind of Advantage player of Merit. Your purpose on his forum is to push buttons, and you do it very well, like comparing me, here, to ZenKing who I utterly despise, and called out many years ago for being a fake. In fact, at the time, i was on Norm's good side for doing so, and calling out the many accounts he had created for that forum, due to similar writing styles.

Try not to twist things up, this one will get interesting for sure.

I'd actually wager that it was because doing so would be seen as supporting me, because he, like Mickey, despises me for no real reason other than thinking I am egotistical.

Side note, is there a location I should post these "Disgusting Emails" that I supposedly sent Norm, after her asked me to stop "multiple" times?

KJ do you have a post here on these forums for yours or where the discussion is taking place?

 

Back up a few pages. lol

 

Would you say this, then, is the applicable place to post the emails between he and I? I'm protected by Fair Use so there is certainly no DMCA claim to be made or risked to the site.

 

Now confirmed that even Mike Shackleford contacted Norm, informing him his post was a lie. And a thank you to Mike for doing so. Didn't matter as the post is still up and no acknowledgement or apology from Norm. He knew all along he was posting a big lie. What a sleezebag this guy is.

 

Exo Ter <[email protected]>
8:03 PM (8 hours ago)


to nw

Removing the link to Discord, calling it a "Scam link" is bullshit, Norm. Discord is a communication platform, just like a Skype, Ventrilo, Team, speak, etc.

Calling a "scam link" is an outright attack, and very childish of you.

That being said, I still invite you to come have a conversation on discord if you'd like, I think you'll find that your assessment of myself and my character is absolutely wrong.


https://discord.gg/SHP7q


From what Eli is telling me, you've deleted his posts as well, showing support for myself and the discord.

I'd suggest joining us on discord before this gets way out of hand.

Norm Wattenberger <[email protected]>
8:26 PM (7 hours ago)


to me

I have no idea who Eli is, or why you would believe in some random folk. If I deleted his posts, it was for damn good reason. You are welcome to tell me who he is and I can explain the reason. But, the members nearly always support bans. You are talking about people, some of whom I’ve known for decades. The only thing ZG and I have in common is that we both knew Revere and have been to his house, who died 40 years ago. I won’t go into detail about the poor people, many with Alzheimer’s, ZG scammed out of millions or how he got out of a life sentence, which is why I stopped the conversation. It is not my intention to pile on people, despite the horrid things they might have done. You really have no idea what you are talking about when you speak of these people.


As far as “get out of hand”, that sounds like a threat. MM and KJ have both threatened me. MM has made videos threatening violence and KJ keeps talking about Mike and my deaths. Mike and I have both ordered KJ to never contact us again under any circumstances. Yet, he continues, even mailing letters to a house he incorrectly thinks is Mike’s house. A poster at GA has suggested KJ throw shit on the house – not knowing that clueless KJ got the wrong house.


The concept of polite conversation has fallen by the way. I moderated my first forum in the early 70s on the ARPANET, long before the web existed. There were few such problems in those days. It has become more and more nasty; far more so since the advent of Trump who has made anger PC. I will not allow that nastiness on my site. It is designed for polite conversation. If you don’t like the site, don’t post there. Simple.


Copyright, 2017, Norman Wattenberger





From: Exo Ter [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 9:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Norm



Exo Ter <[email protected]>
8:40 PM (7 hours ago)


to Norm

Norm, Elimagico369 made a post on your forum in support of me and the discord we are on, defending me, and defending the fact that the link I posted, was not a "scam link". Its an invite link to join the discord chat, which is private and requires a private link to access.

As far as out of hand goes, if you're planning on leaving "removed scam link" up on that administrative edit response, you might as well consider me in the same company as KJ and ZG in terms of having an enemy and not being friends, but I'm not going to harm or threaten you in any way, I truly couldn't care about your life, Norm. Hope all is well, and I hope you come to your senses, but please do yourself the courtesy of removing your Slanderous Administrative Edit of "Scam link removed". That link is no scam, and saying so, I suppose would be libel, not slander, but you get the point.


Norm Wattenberger <[email protected]>
8:55 PM (7 hours ago)


to me

Ridiculous. How can the removal of a link be slanderous or libelous when there is no evidence of the link? You cannot libel an anonymous person. Basic concept of the law. I am trying to update my software to include requests from APs (for free as usual), and you are taking too much of my time. 95% of my site is a free service, without the blinking casino ads on every other site. I don’t have time for this. If you don’t like the site, post on Discord or wherever else you wish and leave us alone. Don’t e-mail me again without something useful to say, instead of false legal accusations of libel or support for career criminals like MM and ZG.


Goodbye.


From: Exo Ter [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 9:40 PM
To: Norm Wattenberger
Subject: Re: Norm



Exo Ter <[email protected]>
8:58 PM (7 hours ago)


to Norm

The removal of the link isn't the issue, norm. Its the fact that you labeled it a scam link, which isn't true. Get that through your head already lol. You have 4 posts from your forum right now discussing blackjack with me right now as I type this email, and another 12ish guys who aren't from your forum.

You insinuated that I posted a scam link, and I did not. That's libelous/Slanderous. Regardless of whether we agree on that, I'd never pursue anything against you for that, I'm not petty, but you certainly could be respectful about things, Norm. I've been nothing if not respectful to you.


Norm Wattenberger <[email protected]>
9:01 PM (7 hours ago)


to me

You have been extremely disrespectful to numerous people on BJTF and WoV. You need to examine your own behavior. If you don’t like the site, post elsewhere. Simple. Leave me alone.





From: Exo Ter [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 9:58 PM



Exo Ter <[email protected]>
9:01 PM (7 hours ago)


to Norm

Edit that remark and I'll gladly leave you alone, Norm. Have some respect.


Norm Wattenberger <[email protected]>
9:04 PM (7 hours ago)


to me

I’ve given you far more respect than you have given me. Leave me alone. I have work to do.


From: Exo Ter [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:02 PM



Exo Ter <[email protected]>
9:08 PM (7 hours ago)


to Norm

KJ told me you'd give me that "I have work to do" line. Which is ironic, considering how things have unfolded. Norm, its simple, it was not a scam link, and in 14 days I'll be responding to it not being a scam link, should you not remove it yourself. You're acting like a child with this, and proving guys like KJ and ZG to be more creditworthy than I had given them, as they both have said you act just like you're acting now.

Simply remove the "scam" portion of your response, its a simple, reasonable request. I have no time for your drama or bullshit, just remove it and we're solid.


Norm Wattenberger <[email protected]>
9:09 PM (7 hours ago)


to me

NEVER e-mail me again. Is that clear?


From: Exo Ter [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2017 10:08 PM



Exo Ter <[email protected]>
9:10 PM (7 hours ago)


to Norm

Remove your libelous administrative response calling the link I provided a scam.

 

Sorry for the massive post, I have no idea on how to format it to be smaller, I hope this is alright and sufficient. I'd like to think that it was a pretty straightforward request that was being blatantly ignored, and then attacked on Norm's end.

Edit: if it needs taken down for formatting purposes, feel free to do so and I apologize ahead of time.

 

I really don't know what a lot of that is about Exoter.

But that part about KJ threatening Norm is another blatant lie attempting to smear my character. I never threatened the guy. I did say he is no friend of AP's or the AP community and provides a platform for a handful of people with an agenda, to intentionally mislead other players. Because of this, it will be a good day for AP's and the AP community when his tired old ass drops dead. In no world, even Norm's alternative universe, is that a threat.


And I personally will celebrate that day. I've got a little clip from the 'Wizard of Oz' all queued up. "Ding Dong, the witch is dead the wicked witch, the wicked witch. Ding Dong the wicked witch is dead."

 

From all the stress this seems to be causing you, he might be the one celebrating your death.

 

It came about because he removed a link to discord, a voice chat platform to which I asked him to come chat with me. He removed it and inserted "removed scam link" as an administrative edit. It was, in fact, no "scam link" but a 24 hour private invite to a private voice chat server. The emails provide the evidence that I was merely interested in having that edit removed, as it was not a scam link, and he would have nothing of the sorts.

Now he's since gone to create a thread about me in the announcements section to warn members of messaging with me because I posted his "private" emails here, which was "illegal" in his eyes. I assure you, not only are those emails perfectly legal, but he is indeed, attacking my character and reputation by doing so. As I mentioned in those emails, however, I wouldn't go after him for doing so. If he needs to accuse me of a great number of things that I have obviously not done (stand up for MM? LOL, I'm the one that took the discord away from him, removed him from it, and started a movement AGAINST him).

All I wanted from Norm was to have that admin comment edited. Even now I'm still refraining from attacking him both publicly and privately, as he attempts to smear me in two threads.

 

I didn't speak up because I don't remember reading that. After my second to last post I decided to stop responding because it was a complete waste of time and I just started skim-reading the rest of the posts...where my last post was about the definition of 'smear', I thought that was kinda funny.

Going back through, it appears he was banned at 5:49pm yesterday, at least according to the time my BJTF account is set to. I searched for "you said it was kj that threatened shack, it was not" on the forum and first page that showed up was Exoter saying "Is it true or not that you claimed KJ threatened Shack when it was in all actuality, the drunkard Mickey Crimm?" at 9:41am yesterday. That was on page 12 of 17 of the "questions for don" thread....where they both made many more posts. So, it's not in line that Exoter got banned for saying it wasn't KJ who threatened Shack....but for his overall disruptive attitude. I'm not sure if he said that more times or only that once, but there's a good 8 hour time difference between that post and his suspension/ban.

If it was a typo, why didn't you say it was a typo? You said 3:1 was break-even on a 1/3 proposition. Don corrected it saying this is false. You, instead of responding and saying it was a typo or you had a brain-fart or something, decided to double down on your claim and say you're right, then attack Don (and later me) for correcting you.

I compared you to ZenKing because you both think you are the bees knees. I'm not sure why you're saying stuff like I don't know what I'm doing with regards to AP, as for all intents and purposes, you know nothing about me.

 

1. Because though I had a typo, Don ignored the typo and instead attacked it and ME for doing so, rather than accepting the fact that it was likely a typo given the conversation between Moses, T3, and myself about the EV of all three points. I told him very specifically he'd need a 3:1 to beat the decisions (true, 3:1 is required to beat the 33% mark) and that he was at 2:1 for insurance purposes.........stop the commentary right there, and I'm not wrong in any way. The three and the two are very close to one another on the keyboard, as you know, so now switching back to telling him he'd need 3:1 to break even was the typo, in context to the 33% point, but later on in my message made mention of not making that insurance below 50% to avoid breakeven for the sake of heat/longevity, which is again, 100% true.The 33% breaks even, and the less than 50% held little EV.

2. You compared me to ZenKing to rile me up, as you are known to do on every forum, and you know the history there with he and I. You knew it would be the only comparison you could have ever made that would actually irritate me. I'd prefer to be compared to a lump of moldy cheese than be compared to ZenKing. Having said that, you yourself have made it clear a myriad of times that you ARE NOT the most qualified to challenge/question me on a great many topics, even having saying so in thread. On top of this, outside of the thread, again, you have made many comments saying you were not a "professional AP" or Full timer by comparison to the rest of us.

Believe it or not, Stoner, though I do not know you personally, you paint a pretty clear picture of yourself on the forums as not being any type of "real" AP. This goes beyond anything said for Modesty.

Edit: Compared, Not prepared to a lump of cheese lol

 

3:1 is not required to beat 33%. Anything above 2:1 beats 33%, but 3:1 is not required.

I don't know or remember any history between you and ZenKing. I don't remember posting anything indicating I'm not a "full time AP" recently (maybe a few years ago when I was not a full time AP). Just because I don't have 40-hours a week on the machines or tables doesn't mean I'm not a full time AP. But go ahead and make yourself feel better by trying to put others down. You are the world' best machine AP, aren't'cha?

 

Have you ever in your life seen fractional odds inside of a casino for payout purposes on a blackjack game?

"Anything above 2:1 beats 33%" very specifically MEANS 3:1, Stoner.

As far as ZenKing goes, I'm the one responsible for having him removed from the forum so many times. I called him out for being fake, for being a liar, for embellishing his BR, his Game, and whether or not he even plays.

As far as YOU go, Stoner, if you type "full time" into Google, you return with the following result.

1. 
   
   The very definition of "full time", even Colloquial, implies 40 hours/week.
   
   I didn't come here to pick a fight with you, man.

 

I wasn't even aware Exoter tried to correct Norm at 9:41am (post #118). I was referring to (post #142) at 3:06pm, where Exoter said to Norm "you said it was KJ that threatened Shackleford, when it was not". Good for Exoter! He corrected Norm, and when Norm ignored him and didn't correct the lie, Exoter, brought it up a second time at 3:06 pm. Two hour later he was suspended. I can't say for sure it was that line of questioning that did him in, but I am sure it played apart.

More importantly, 2 days ago Norm posted "KJ threatened and harassed Shackleford so severely that Mike contacted the police on KJ". He has been informed that is completely false, twice by Exoter, in the thread and privately by both myself and Michael Shackleford, and yet he has still refused to correct this rather nasty lie. Can we at least agree this was no accident? He intentionally told a lie, indicating criminal activity, to smear my name.

 

Full-time AP: When it comes to AP, I don't think full time is defined by # of hours.

Some AP's are grinders putting in far more than 40 hours/wk, while I know others that play as little as 12-15 hours and pull in upwards of 100k a year (EV). And then you get in to what you are including in those hours worked? Some count only time spent at a table or machine. Some include time scouting both tables and machines and their actual play is a fraction of that time. There is no right or wrong way.

When I first moved to Vegas 8 years ago, I was grinding upwards of 60/hours a week and earning 75k - 85k in EV. Now-a-days I play 25-30 hours a week and earn that same EV range. My improvement, including a couple advanced tricks, has come in the form of efficiency rather than increased annual revenue.

There are guys like Mickey, both machine players and BJ players that take a trip for a week to 10 days racking up 12 hours a day or more and then don't play again for a month.

How ever an AP accumulated his hour, even if it amounts to roughly 40hrs/wk, you can bet it isn't a "typical" 40 hour work week. I myself play one 3-5 day stretch per month, working the grave yard shift, just to mix up my play.

So rather than # of hours, I think what defines a full-time AP is if APing is how he makes his living or the majority of his income.

 

Hum...I see some posts were broken off. Just as well because I want to post something from Norm's Voodoo site. A list of issues Norm has with Exoter. Please take note of #2. Norm doesn't like it when people post about him where he can not respond! The guy who has posted hundreds and hundreds of comments about me on his site since he banned me (including about 20 mentions just yesterday) doesn't like it when people post about him where he can't respond.