Lounge Does anyone do anything but bitch on here

The amount of legitimate gaming posts here is next to nill

 

Micky posts some good stuff.

 

Yet you post more here daily ...are you complaining about yourself

 

I'm just here for the ambiance.

Mickey's stuff is unique, and it's why I'm here (says so in my intro).

There's really not much to be learned
here or anywhere regarding anything else, whether it's roulette, blackjack, video poker, craps, or other non-opinion games. The heyday of blackjack was decades years ago. The sweet spot for VP was 20 years ago. The horses are out of the barn.

Games of opinion are either pari-mutuel or have pari-mutuel aspects. Anyone who wins isn't going to share unless they're on their death bed.

No matter the forum (this one, WoV, VCT, LVAdvisor, LVAdvice, and so on), there's not much you're realistically going to learn. In fact, I can make a strong case that avoiding these forums has gambling benefits unless you're a novice.

 

There are definitely a few hidden gems on Wov- Even one or two on Vegas casino talk- and made a few good real life connections- something that doesn't seem would ever happen here
I only post here to reply to comments of the nonsense- I would love to be able to have convo but some of the animals in here seem to make that impossible

 

Even the pms don't seem to work here - which is why I was active to get to 300 but when I did I still do not see it enabled

 

Perhaps for counting cards in many popular locations, however there's other things available on tables especially with more games available. Years down the road someone will be saying the same thing about the stuff going on nowadays.

VP is far from dead, it's just different now there was more than 1 sweet spot. You're not hearing about VP as much now because it's not as cut and dry as it was before, it's more hidden and complicated, the people who are taking advantage of many current good opportunities are keeping quiet for the most part. You get the general interesting but not all the good details. the changes thinned the herd.
I remember a time when any good promotion would be crawling with APs, nowadays I see considerably less and i'll be shocked wondering why no one is there, I sometimes I wonder if there's something better going on down the street.

The important thing about being a good advantage player is being able to adapt to the changes, learn and play many different aspects of AP and be ready(for the most part you can't really learn online or from books).

I have always noticed when one thing dies something else oftentimes takes it's place. Sometimes you don't really notice it's full potential until later on.

Before VP there was plenty of fantastic slot plays around and very few people actually taking advantage of them (Fortunately good information was slow moving back then).

Many of the guys who were AP'ing slots migrated into VP when VP became popular and opportunities flourished. The slot AP's were the first people to figure out and take advantage of VP, especially since they were already beating much more difficult to figure out slots. Slot plays are significantly harder to figure out since you can't just go enter the pay table into a program and get an answer.

Guys like Frankie who talk about VP actually worked for and learned from guys who originally made their money from slots. You don't hear about or from these guys much because they watched as the internet became their worst nightmare as free information started spreading.

Slot AP never disappeared it just wasn't as prevalent and everyone's main focus, especially when you're dealing with high machine holds in the first place. It's much easier to get an advantage on VP especially when you can find games that are 99%+. Again, VP AP is alive and well, it's just mostly different (It may actually be better). There's still progressive plays (Djatc just posted a 12k RF team hit up on Wizardofvegas) point multipliers, promotions etc there's just less of it.

AP bonus slotting(thank you kentry for re coining the word slotting) eventually became big, but that actually started up in the early 90's(Even before the 90's there were bonus machines) there just wasn't many people doing it. I remember having zero competition on some really good slot machines for at least 2 or 3 weeks, but eventually people would see you(I did occasionally try to disguise myself) within days of someone figuring it out one by one other people would show up, but there really weren't many of them then. The VP grinders rarely took notice and didn't realize the value of slots.

Nothing is really dead it's just different.

 

Everything I work here in Montana is different than the stuff I worked in Nevada. I worked plays all over Nevada. I was taking the path of least resistance. I was always going after the easy money. Then I discovered Big Sky slotting. I never intended to stay here. I was up here in the summer of 2007. But I went back to Nevada. In November of 2007 I came back with the intent of working plays for about 2 months then heading back to Nevada. That's been almost 9 years ago and I still haven't gone back to Nevada.

No one is going to get rich slotting Montana. But I make a good living. I'm still able to stash money away for old age. But one of the big attractions here, to me, is no money swings. There is just no downside risk. I literally get payed everyday.

 

Agreed. My problem is that 20 years ago, I was in the 7th grade. I would have loved to "have gotten in the game" a decade or even more earlier than I was able to and have had access to and played much better games with lower house edges to overcome and less heat. Imagine just sitting and playing (play-all) with out all the hassle of the short session, hit and run malarkey that I go through now. Yeah that would have been sweet!. If...only!

But, just because "the heyday" was 20 (and I would actually argue 30ish) years ago, doesn't mean that you can't still succeed playing the game today and do so with the same basic approach. There is just more swings (variance) involved and you need to tweek the approach to escape some of the negative counts and of course, find ways to deal with the heat. So it is more challenging, but still very doable.

It's kind of funny, but I have noticed a very generational thing. Anyone over the age of 45-50, that played those better conditions and games for a number of years, wants almost nothing to do with attempting to play at an advantage in today's world of BJ. But those of us, say early to mid 30's or younger and I know a number of younger successful guys, aren't as Frustrated by today's games and conditions. It is all we have ever known and played. These are the games we learned to play against and beat.

I am vaguely familiar with LVAdvisor, although I never participated on the forum part, but of the sites that I have participated on concerning blackjack and most were almost strictly blackjack related, like BJ21.com, Norm Wattenburger's site, Ken Smiths Blackjackinfo before that and even WoV (which not strictly blackjack), I have learned a great deal from members sharing their experiences and knowledge. I have taken many, many things, learned from other members, some significant, some very minor details and incorporated them into my game and plan of attack. So I could not disagree more that you cannot and will not learn and benefit from participation on forums with other AP's.

I suppose if you have been in the game for 40 years, maybe you don't learn all that much new, but even then, I have been in the game for 14 years, playing professionally, and still am frequently adding to my education and picking up things fairly regularly. Wisdom is like EV....it's cumulative and every little extra helps.

 

My immediate response is that anyone who thinks vp is as good now as 20-25 years ago is either delusional or young. Axelwolf, how old are you?

Just to start, VP originally returned just as much in comps and cash back as slots. The reduction in percentage comps and cash back is huge without even getting to the games themselves.

I think people don't want to face the reality of it because they are committed/addicted to doing it. It's much, much tougher now, and if you're not in Dancer's slot club grades, well, good luck to you.

 

Axel is not that old but he has been operating since the early nineties when he was barely old enough to be in the casinos. He remembers the big edges that were available back then.

 

You know Mickey...you are so spoiled. And where is the 'fun' in that no variance, no swings crap? .

Past 2 weeks, my BJ results have gone backwards about 6 grand. (I would have done better to have spent more time on this forum attacking Wizard...). My younger brother has gone backwards $7500, since July 1. That's fun stuff. Who doesn't want to work several weeks and lose money. It's like working for 2 weeks and when pay day comes, you own the boss money.

But, that is where discipline and patience enters the equation. .

With blackjack and card counting, it is such a simple and elementary form of AP, that I always say the variance and swings are my friend. If there was no variance and swings, and everyone just won daily as you do, then everyone in Vegas with $100 bucks to his name, would be a winning card counter AP, and casino's wouldn't be able to offer beatable BJ. In BJ, variance weeds out the weak.

 

Yes, KJ, I am spoiled rotten. I work short term advantages. Its low denom stuff but comes with big edges. There's a few exceptions but I pretty much won't play anything with less than a 10% edge. Overall my seat time is worth about $140 an hour. But that comes with a couple of caveats. I spend as much time hunting down the plays as I do in the seat spinning them off. And once I knock a town down, it generally only takes a few days, that town is dead in the water to me until its had 6 to 8 weeks soak time for the plays to build back up.

Not every play is a winner but they are usually small losses that are well made up for on the winning plays.

 

You cant have things both ways. No moderating equals....the wild wild west.

Ken

 

I never asked for no moderating - if there is a choice I would way prefer moderation.

 

I'm neither young or old, I started young. I quit my job to AP in or about 1993. I can't remember exactly what year it was now. I technically started APing in vegas before I was 21 perhaps 19. Some video store had 99 cent rental days. They had a electronic wheel spin that gave you a coupon 1 out of 4 spins for $10 in free .25 slot coins for the 4 queens on a bank of video poker. I would buy people's coupons and scoop up abandoned ones people left behind. Some of the employees would just let me spin a bunch of times(I got free food too)
At the beginning they allowed you to turn in multiple coupons up to 10. Then they started limiting it and checking ID. At that point I just had people passing by turn in the coupons for me and paid them few bucks(occasionally some jerks would take my coins).

I know all about the higher cash back, 3% VP meters, 103% full pay machines lucrative promotions and all the stuff you read about, I probably played it or some version of it. When I started many places didn't even have a player's cards. AAMOF You could buy in for rolls of coins they would log it in you gambling log book and you could just cash in the coins and eat like a king. It was kinda cool when after I stopped doing that I seen this .

I know guys who have started VP in the last 4 or 5 years and they are doing better than you might think. I'm not going to explain why it's possibly better than 20 years ago, an argument can be made for both. I will say there definitely was a lot more progressives and full pay machines and promotions then. If you include the amount of people who could support themselves and variety of opportunities I would agree, but I guarantee if you know what you're doing there's more available than you might think. FYI there's a lot more casinos now.

 

Mickey did I understand you correctly before when you said there were still a few jacked up VP games that return 110%+ straight through because it's resetting higher than it should or something like that? If so what keeps the locals from beating it by chance or at least a small hold? Even with a difficult strategy it's hard to make 10% worth of mistakes.

 

The game, Jackpot Aces, has close to a 14% edge. I'm down to two machines in one casino. The reason the locals don't beat it is they play it very badly. I've watched them play. They are very bad.

Jackpot Aces is a game where the ploppies don't really have much of an edge, if any edge at all. The key hand is the Natural Aces Full of Anything. Its a single joker game and ploppies normally play joker games very badly. In this game its even worse for them. The typical ploppy strategy will only yield an Aces Full hand about every 2000 games. With optimal strategy the frequency is 876. So they are losing a lot of value because of just that one key hand. It's just a 50 cent bet. The Aces Full hand pays 200 for 1, plus 1% meter. Which means the Aces Full hand represents about 24% of the payback with optimal strategy. But the way the ploppies play the game the Aces Full hand is only worth about 10% of the payback to them.

Axel, you know the age old question for an AP, torch it or milk it? These little houses that only carry up to 20 machines can't take huge losses for days in a row. If I beat them out of say $1000 a day for a few days they are going to have the slot techs in to see what's going on. Meanwhile, I know the ploppies don't have much of an edge, if any at all, in the game. So I have just been milking the play for years. I usually cash out a $500 to $1000 win on a machine then let it soak. At least thats the way I've done it in the past.

But here is another thing. I really don't care about the play anymore. It's about a $70 an hour play. My seat ime on other plays averages to about $140 an hour but I spend as much time looking for those short term advantages as I do spinning them off. So I'm making about $70 an hour anyway.

I really don't have any incentive to sit on one machine for hours at the time anymore. On my other plays, the longest one has an average seat time of just 40 minutes. So I'm up walking around looking for another play in short order. It keeps me awake and alert, whereas, sitting on the one machine for hours, I get drowsy all the time.

 

I would just assume there's got to be at least 1 or 2 people that have some clue there might be some value and do some research. Yes I get the fact that you can't scorch the machine or it's gone. One wouldn't have the luxury of letting something sit in most places, 3% would get locked up in just about any normal location.

 

Micky I don't play slots, never have. So from a newbie prospective, I thought you just press a button and the machine spins and what comes up, comes up. The machines I've looked at I didn't think there was any decision making, just people in zombie mode constantly hitting the button being hypnotize by the lights and sound. Are you saying you are able to "hold reels"? Also I was lead to believe slots are rigged to return say 70 ~ 80% on the dollar, so don't understand how a machine could return 110% straight through.
Like I say, I know nothing about slots, which is why I've considered AP slot play in the same light as 'dice setting' in craps.